BusTalk Forum Index BusTalk
A Community Discussing Buses and Bus Operations Worldwide!
 
 BusTalk MainBusTalk Main FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups BusTalk GalleriesBusTalk Galleries   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Electrico Carro Fiesta!
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 50, 51, 52, 53  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> Surface Transit - Everywhere Else
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2025 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(SEE PREVIOUS POST)

Also......

During the postwar years, another major enemy of the streetcar was the conversion of two-way thoroughfares into one-ways.

Of course, this presented no problem whatsoever for buses.

With streetcars, it was an entirely different story.

In Baltimore, a number of BTC streetcar lines were converted to buses for this very reason, during the 1950s.

Interestingly, there WERE a few noteworthy exceptions, where new trackage was built on an adjacent street, or, perhaps relocated to a reserved median.

This, IMHO, was but an excercise in futility, as the last two BTC car lines (the #s 8 and 15) were converted to buses in late 1963.....

"NYO"

["17 WESTPORT"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2025 3:03 pm    Post subject: Streetcars in the posrwar era (hinderences, etc) Reply with quote

Error

Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Tue Oct 14, 2025 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1172
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2025 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Streetcars and their infrastructure were doomed because they had to rely on fare box revenues to pay their way back in the day. Once there were paved streets, buses were the obvious way to go for more economical and reliable service.

I believe that the only reason they are being built today is the huge amount of public money being infused into them by transit taxes. They make no more economic sense today than they did in the '40's and '50's. I'm referring to modern day LRV and "streetcar" systems like we have in the Phoenix area. Not only are they expensive to build and operate but they are unsafe for fare-paying passengers due to "open platforms" such as we have here. No fare control other than security chasing around after freeloaders and troublemakers who simply get off and wait for the next car and do it all over again.

What we loved was a passing phase that the lack of paved streets required that isn't needed now. No amount of wishing and hoping is going to bring them back, at least in the form we cherished. However, it's enjoyable to reminisce about the good old days of what we remember.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2025 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider:

Good points, all.

You mentioned paved streets.

Back in the day, street railway companies were required to clear the streets of snow, if their cars operated on them (this is why PSNJ once rostered a HUGE fleet of plows and sweepers)

A sizeable number of these cars were scrapped by 1940; though PS, of course, DID roster a number of "snow cars" in later years, their number was far less than they had been, prior to 1940.

Once the streetcars had been replaced by buses, PS (and other streetcar operators) were spared the financial burden of having to clear the streets on which their cars ran................

"NYO"

["23 CENTRAL"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1172
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2025 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even more reasons to get rid of streetcars and use buses! We'd probably have done the same thing in their place if faced with the economic challenges they were.

Now, the public transit authorities can build whatever they want, or whatever their vendors want them to build, and build their prestige at the public's expense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2025 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider wrote:
Even more reasons to get rid of streetcars and use buses! We'd probably have done the same thing in their place if faced with the economic challenges they were.

Now, the public transit authorities can build whatever they want, or whatever their vendors want them to build, and build their prestige at the public's expense.


Cyberider:

Agreed, 100%.

Think of the tremendous expense that the big companies like PSNJ, CSL, BERy, etc., had for many decades, rostering hundreds of specialized work cars, including:

Sweepers

Plows

Line cars

Tower cars

Tool cars

Salt cars

Sand cars

Rail grinders

Compressor cars (used in conjunction with powering pneumatic jackhammers at work sites)

Then, both TARS and Capital Transit/DC Transit also rostered "slot scrapers", foir use on conduit-equipped lines..........

"NYO"

["ROSEVILLE"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further........

Although they DID generate their own electricity (PSNJ), the expense of maintaining a streetcar fleet that once numbered over 2000 cars was tremendous, not to mention the massive cash outlay for the maintaining of tracks, structures, and related facilities.

In northern NJ, so vast was PS's work car fleet, that not only did each car house maintain its own stable of work cars, but, also, both Passaic Wharf (Kearny) and Plank Road (Newark) also had large yards, with special sections reserved for still more work equipment, of many different types.

By 1954, with only the Newark City Subway remaining, the once-massive work car fleet was down to about only four or five cars........

"NYO"

["21 ORANGE"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also.......

PS also had the extra expense of operating their own quarry on the Hudson River, just north of Manhattan

Gravel for paving and private ROW renewal was brought down to Passaic Wharf via barge, where it was then loaded onto double-ended flatbed dump cars (PS then rostered a large number of these cars)

From here, track connections allowed the dump cars to travel to any location on any of the numerous lines then operating in Northern New Jersey.

This operation ended in 1938, when all track connections to Passaic Wharf were severed..........

"NYO"

["43 JERSEY CITY"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a rare photo (circa-1937) of a portion of the massive Passaic Wharf facility in Kearny.

Into the 1930s, this huge complex featured car barns, machine and paint shops, as well as outdoor car storage.

By the later 1930s, PW had earned the dubious title of "streetcar slaughterhouse" by local traction buffs, as the facility then primarily was being used for the storage and scrapping of hundreds of now-surplus streetcars (the last were not scrapped until 1943)

Note PS's lone steeplecab (#6000), used to move OOS cars about the yards...........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?118347

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["43 UNION"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1172
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info on PSNJ. How were they funded other than fare box revenue?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider wrote:
Thanks for the info on PSNJ. How were they funded other than fare box revenue?


Cyberider:

You are welcomr!

As New Jersey's largest and most diverse utility, more than enough $$$$$$ took care of the stretecar, bus, and ferry operations, for many years.

But, PSNJ's head honcho, Thomas McCarter, was VERY pro-bus early on, and, made it clear that he wanted to divest his company of as many streetcar routes as possible, replacing them with ASVs and buses (the ASVs only lasted a little more than a decade, with the last lines converted in 1948)

By 1938, all of the PS car lines in Camden (SOUTHERN Division) had been converted, along with the streetcars running on the BERGEN, PASSAIC, and CENTRAL Divisions.

Only the lines feeding the City Subway in Newark remained on the Essex Division, and only four lines on the HUDSON Division (the latter were converted by 1949)

PSNJ, not surprisingly, was one of the few major streetcar operators which did not participate in the PCC development program (although, I DID see a rendition of a proposed "streamlined" car from 1937, which more resembled a Brilliner)

Ironically, Mr. McCarter passed away not long after PS began operating its first 4104s in 1954.

Most of the many substations once used for providing power for the streetcars (and ASVS) were later "tied in" to their overall power grid............

"NYO"

["7 CITY SUBWAY"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A VERY rare view of the Newton Avenue (Newark) car house and yards, taken in 1930 (an interesting collection of older rolling stock can be seen here).........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?117033

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

Beginning in 1935, (and until 1948) this large facility also served ASVs; the last streetcars were stabled here in 1938.

PS continued to use this facility for buses; TNJ also used it during the 1970s, but was closed early on by NJT in the early 1980s.


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1172
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was PSNJ an independent utility or some kind of quasi-governmental utility? Sounds like they had their bases covered.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 30028
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyberider wrote:
Was PSNJ an independent utility or some kind of quasi-governmental utility? Sounds like they had their bases covered.


Cyberider:

TOTALLY independent utility (my late brother worked for PS's Utility Division until retiring in 1990)

In the early 1970s, the transit "arm" of PS broke away from the parent utility, and became known as "TNJ" (Transport Of New Jersey)

New Jersey Transit took over TNJ operations in the very early 1980s............

"NYO"

["21 WEST NEW YORK"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberider




Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 1172
Location: Tempe, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, NYO. I always wondered about PSNJ. Sounds like they had a very impressive scope in their earlier days. In addition to the great looking paint scheme on their streetcars and buses!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BusTalk Forum Index -> Surface Transit - Everywhere Else All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 50, 51, 52, 53  Next
Page 51 of 53

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group