BusTalk

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below being loaded with U.S. Mail and signed as a 'Chicago Express' is fleet # C 3813 – a GM PD 4104 and one of 45 built for Central Greyhound Lines of New York between 1953 and 1960.

The 4104, which first appeared in 1953, marked the beginning of truly modern bus design featuring forward slanted picture windows (which were then grafted onto GM’s ‘New Look’ transit line in 1959), air suspension, air conditioning and optional restroom equipment.

You may note that in the picture the bus is marked ‘Scenicruiser Service’, however GM decided to christen their new deck and a half PD 4501 as such in 1954 and henceforth called the 4104 a ‘Highway Traveler’.

5,065 4104’s were built between 1953 and 1960 and operated for virtually every over the road company in the country with Greyhound and Trailways accounting for nearly half of the production.

Central Greyhound of New York serviced the entire state with connections via affiliates all across the U.S. until the mid eighties when Greyhound reorganized into four distinct regions and designated the New York territory as part of the Eastern division.

The Midwest sector was renamed as Central Greyhound with headquarters in Chicago.

Aside from being the fastest things on six wheels, here’s some pertinent statistics on the 4104’s;

Length; 35 feet
Width; 96 inches
Height; 121 inches
Wheelbase; 261 inches
Turn radius; 42 feet
Typical engine; DDA 6V71
Seating; 38 with restroom – 45 without
Luggage compartment; 187 cu. ft.
Aisle width; 14 inches
Door width; 28 inches

While production ended in 1960, the 4104 lived on in the guise of the improved PD 4106 which continued until 1965.

These buses were solidly built and extremely reliable with many running for as long as thirty five years!

Statistics courtesy of Bus World Encyclopedia
Photo courtesy of Trailways Memories

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

8939

[Mr. Linsky]

Now that I'm off the clock, so to speak, from being your tour guide through the history of buses I'll tell you a little story about the 4104's and 4106's that I had personal experiences with;

When I worked for Green Line doing vacation reliefs back when, I often drove the Q10 Lefferts Boulevard line with one of its terminations being the then New York International Airport (now JFK).

Invariably, there would be a Carey Transportation 4104 or 4106 (the 4106's were brand new at the time) flying in from Van Wyck and passing me like I was standing still! (in fact, one time I thought I was stading still - opened the door and got out - only kidding!).

Anyway, I used to meet some of the Carey drivers at the main terminal (the only stop in those days) and we would have a few laughs - like one would say while looking at my bus; "when are you going to take that thing out of reverse?".

You could see how they gloated over their 8V-71's!

Never thinking that the day would come when I would get even with them, I was lucky enough to be driving # 364 one evening (364, which we fondly called one of the gondola cars, was a 5104 and usually as slow as molasses, except that this night the governor was broken - watch out!

I come around the turn from Richmond Hill Circle past Federal Plaza and I'm rolling! (I think I had one passenger with me who was half asleep).

Sure as your born, just as I'm getting onto the straightaway, here comes a Carey really moving.

I have to tell you that it was neck and neck, and I pushed that 2 cycle as fast as it would go - the outcome was a tie and the guy couldn't believe it! (actually, neither could I).

Well, things were a little different after that - and I never mentioned the broken governor!

So, at least for one night, I was 'king of the road'!

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

In the private photo below is fleet # 404 – a 1928 29 passenger ACF Model 508-2-B-3 Observation Car operating for The Boston and Maine Transportation Company and signed for Boston.

I guess, in a broad sense of the word, this deck and a half could be considered an ancestor of the Greyhound PD 4501 Scenicruiser as the company was known to have experimented with a number of these models from different sources before the advent of the Yellow Streamliners and Super Coaches of the early thirties.

The ACF ‘508’ chassis first appeared in 1928 in three versions of which two were conventional and the third as depicted below.

The bodies were built by Lang at the very beginning of their work on all metal construction and only a small number of the Observation models were ever produced.

Notice the multiple license plates that were required on interstate buses in those days in order to operate through each state represented.

The story of the Boston and Maine Transportation Company itself is quite interesting and can be found at http://www.nashuacitystation.org/print.php?city=bostonmaine&content=bmtco

Photo courtesy of Trailways Memories.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

9648

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is fleet # 819 – a 1944 GM/Yellow PDA 3702 operating for the Missouri Pacific Bus Lines and signed for Poplar Bluff, Missouri (known as the ‘gateway’ to the Ozarks).

The 3702 was considered to be the next step by Yellow Coach in the intercity bus evolution and featured under floor loaders and a GM Frigidaire Air Conditioning system mounted in the rear compartment and powered by a separate gasoline engine.

These coaches were built by the Pontiac Motor Car Division (and not T. & C.) at Pontiac, Michigan under Office of Defense Transportation regulations which (under wartime conditions) dictated straight in engine placement, an all steel body and a utilitarian all gray paint job combined with either wooden or steel passenger rails.

These 37 seat buses were equipped with either a 4-71 Detroit Diesel (when available and popularly known as a ‘four banger’) or a standard gasoline engine and were 96 inches wide.

Many of the coaches were designated to the armed services and only a handful ever reached commercial operators.

The Missouri Pacific Bus Lines had its beginnings in 1928 and originally duplicated the 23 routes of its parent rail road company.

In 1936 the company became one of five affiliates of Trailways adding almost 14,000 miles to the system which stretched from deep in the heart of Texas through St Louis but never reached Chicago.

Missouri Pacific like Greyhound and Public Service of New Jersey maintained their own rebuild shops and concocted the 3702 update also shown below (sure looks something like part of a 4104!).

Photos courtesy of Trailways Memories.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

9826

[Mr. Linsky]

Pictured below is either fleet # 8905 or 8906 and one of two 1957 Kassbohrer (pronounced case-boar-er) Model ‘Academy Express’ articulated demonstrators operating for Continental Trailways and assigned to service on the Denver-Colorado Springs-Pueblo Motorway in Colorado.

These 62 passenger 60 foot long coaches were bought by the company in the year before the arrival of the first familiar Super Golden Eagles but continued to service the local Colorado route for a number of years.

While powered by M.A.N. amidships Diesels coupled with Z-F transmissions and a primitive hydraulic leveling system both buses were devoid of any luggage capacity either inside, under floor or on the trailer roof, and had no air conditioning systems.

Regardless of their deficiencies in amenities, these models were a determining factor in Trailway’s decision to go with high capacity equipment with the first Eagle models also being articulated but with far better appointments and elevated floors for easier passenger sightseeing.

Probably one of the original European manufacturers to make serious inroads on American highways, Kassbohrer did build virtually all of Trailway’s Eagle models as well.

Photo courtesy of the Jay Carollo collection.

Mr.Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

9907

[Cyberider]

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

I would call it an 'Extreme Makeover', and it must have been for the want of something to do!

Instead of going to all the trouble that they did (and you'll notice that it's not such a hot job to begin with!), they might just as well have gone out and bought a new 4104 for what this job must have cost them.

It's obvious that they looted a GM parts department and came up with this crazy quilt of several models.

Who knows?

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[The Don of All Buses]

[Cyberider]

I agree! Interesting, nevertheless. Thanks for your continuing efforts to scour the internet for new old buses for us, Mr. Linsky!

[Mr. Linsky]

The whole idea of the 'Nostalgia' trip that I have invited everyone to take with me is to understand how wheeled surface transportation has evolved through the years, and to give you a well rounded history on a subject that we all seem to hold dearly.

I think it's fascinating to see the changes and, beyond that, to glimpse at a time when buses were really built like buses should be, and what an important roll they played in developing travel across America!

Think about it!

Thanks to all of you for your continued support.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

Shown in the picture below is fleet # 3598 – a 1952 GM Model TDH 5103 and one of 181 5103’s (including one demo) delivered to Cleveland Transit System between 1951 and 1953 numbered from 400 to 449 and 3500 to 3629.

While the 5103 was not the first in GM’s 40 foot class (The City of New York received an exclusive order of 400 5101's between 1948 and 1949), it was the first made available for general consumption and the first of its length to be 102 inches in width.

Powered by 6-71 Detroit Diesels, GM produced 951 of these oversized buses between 1950 and 1953 with the first order of 125 allocated to Pacific Electric Lines, Co. of Los Angeles.

With the higher capacity and wider aisles, Cleveland utilized these coaches to continue their ongoing conversion of trolley lines across the city.

In fact, the company was so delighted with the equipment that they ordered 186 TDH 5105’s with then new Air Suspension when they became available in 1954.

CTS was extremely proud of their rolling stock and commissioned the famous designer Raymond Loewy to create a very unique livery for them early on which, in one form or another, remained their trademark for many years.

Most of Cleveland’s 5103’s survived the onslaught of the GM ‘New Look’ and continued to operate until the early seventies when they were sold off to other companies.

Photo courtesy of Cleveland Transit System.

Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

10045

[Cyberider]

Nice bus, Mr. L. Who knows, I may have ridden it with my Mom or Dad when I was a kid! I have a more distinct memory of the Twins in Cleveland, though.

Congratulations on 10,000+ hits on this thread, Mr. Linsky! A job well done but hopefully not finished!

[Mr. Linsky]

Dave,

First of all, I never, never, ever thought that 'Bus Nostalgia' would become the success that it has, and much of the accolades for this success should be directed toward all of you who have supported it and who have helped me to present it.

As for the future; material is on the wane but I shall make every attempt to continue albeit at a somewhat slower pace.

You mention the 'Twins' of Cleveland; the records do show a substantial purchase of both 41-S and 44-D Twin Coaches during 1947 with the first GM's being the mentioned 5103's in 1951.

Cleveland Transit has a most interesting history being made up of a number of regional companies that eventually came together.

A short but concise synopsis will be found at;

http://www.omot.org/history/garfield.html

Thanks again for the compliments.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Mr. Linsky]

In regard to Cleveland Transit System;

I stated that the first GM coaches to reach CTS property were the 5103's featured above in 1951.

However. a more careful check of the records discloses that 25 TD 4007's numbered 3200 to 3224 were delivered in February 1945.

An order for 25 TDH 4507's numbered 3400 to 3424 arrived in July 1947 followed by another 25 4507's numbered 3450 to 3474 in January 1948.

So, it would seem as though Cleveland ran both Twins and GM's simultaneously after the war.

Sorry for the mis-information.

Mr.Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

[Cyberider]

I thought I'd seen photos of straight-window Old Looks in Cleveland and, in fact, that looks like one of them behind the 5103. Don't know how the Twins were distributed throughout the systems compared to the GM's but they made a bigger impression to my young mind at the time. I was less than 4 years old and would have travelled primarily on the east side.