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Farewell to Metro North West-of-Hudson rail service?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting "operating procedure" at Pavonia Terminal*.....

Track #12, the northernmost track at the Pavonia terminal, handled the longest trains with no difficulty, as it extended out across the main station concourse, and out onto a pier.

At times of high tide, however, the track on the pier would be submerged, and the steamers handling such trains as the prestigious "ERIE LIMITED" would have to wade through at least two feet of water to reach the clearance of the release crossover.

Special instructions in the ERIE Employees Timetable prohibited roller bearing-equipped locomotives from going into water more than two feet deep on this track.

In later years, for obvious reasons, diesels were never allowed out on this pier, at times of high tide.....

"NYO"

*(information courtesy of :"THE ROUTE OF THE ERIE LIMITED" (Dirkes/Krause)
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Here's a beautiful old postcard view of the "ERIE LIMITED" near Port Jervis, just prior to the dieselization of ERIE's through trains.

Magnificent "through line" engines such as this were, at first ,"bumped" down into the commuter pool, and, later, retired and scrapped.

The last ERIE steamers dropped their fires in 1953; the final steam-hauled ERIE train was a commuter run out of Jersey City.

Many of the heavyweight cars seen in this consist, however, lasted well into the E-L era......

www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-pc-erilmt-arp.jpg

(courtesy: FallenFlags Railroads)


This and the next post links don't work....


traildriver:

I think that 'Fallen Flags" site is having issues; I just tried to click on several photo links, and all I got was a "server not found" message.

I know this site was having issues awhile back, and was even down for some weeks.

Let's hope this issue is corrected soon.....

"NYO"


Thanks...it works now. Smile
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
One interesting fact regarding the ERIE was that it was the first "main line" railroad in the greater New York/New Jersey area to install advertising posters in and on its stations, as well as on suburban platforms.

1910-era photos already show a plethora of ad posters on station platform; such posters could also be found at the ERIE's ferry slips, in Jersey City and Manhattan.

In later years, these signs were mounted in frames bearing "TDI" plaques; such advertising posters dominated commuter rail stations in the area.

Like the ERIE (and later, the E-L) the CNJ also displayed numerous ads in their stations and on the platforms; such signs always added an intresting and colorful "big city" aura to the depots.....

"NYO"


I remember all the "station" timetables produced by TDI for the LIRR...They would group about three or four stops on a route into a small, easy to read timetable, paid for by ads. Few people asked for or wanted the full detailed branch timetables the Rail Road produced...


Also recall the platform and mezzanine clocks in the New York subway stations, that said: "Self-Winding Clock Company", "Naval Observatory Time".....these were also sponsored by TDI, with an illuminated ad adjacent...
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

How well I recall those little "pocket timetables", especially those for E-L and CNJ trains; they are, today, "mini time machines", as their ads recall Broadway shows, business establishments, and, often, local cab companies, all of which have long since vanished into history (the old telephone exchanges, alone, really take you back in time!) Wink

I have a pocket TT for CNJ's Bayonne stations from 1964; ads include "SAVE AT THE BOWERY" ("BOWERY" also used to have a lot of car card ads, back in those long-gone days), U.S. SAVINGS BONDS, and DINER'S CLUB

Another (even older) pocket TT I have is for the DL&W's South Orange trains; ads include:

"SOUTH ORANGE RADIO CAB CO." (phone SO 2-3800)

"CARDINAL TELEVISION REPAIR SERVICE" (Newark)

"RAMAPO TREE SURGEONS"

There is also an ad for TDI itself (then headquartered at GCT)

One interesting ad advises passengers:

"TO UPTOWN MANHATTAN, VIA 9th, 10th, AMSTERDAM AVENUES TO LA SALLE (125th ST.) TAKE BUS NO. 11 AT CHRISTOPHER ST. FERRY" (this ferry shut down in 1955)

Also:

"CRUISES: GREAT LAKES VACATION CRUISES-8 DAYS-$125.33 FROM NEW YORK; SLIGHTLY LOWER RATES FROM NEW JERSEY POINTS CONSULT YOUR LOCAL LACKAWANNA TICKET AGENT FOR MORE INFORMATION."

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also in my TT collection are several 1970's E-L pocket timetables for the diesel lines; each shows a photo of a "Dieseliner" push-pull, and, also, gives commuters the correct colored light designation (an old ERIE practice) at the train gates at Hoboken.

There are no ads in these TT's (1974-1976), and, what I also find interesting, is the notice in the TT for the "Main Line" trains (which terminated at Port Jervis) that tells patrons who wish to find the fares for service to stations in New York State:

"FOR FARES TO OR FROM STATIONS IN NEW YORK STATE, CONTACT TICKET AGENTS"

Fares are listed, however, for stations between Hoboken and Mahwah.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a difference six years makes......

I have two E-L "through" TT's in my collection; the older of the two dates to 1963, the more recent, late 1969.

In the TT from 1963, the E-L was still operating a number of through trains out of Hoboken, terminating at Scranton, Binghamton, Buffalo, and Chicago.

Listings are given for the equipment used on these trains, including coaches, diners, buffets, buffet-lounges, and observation-lounges.

Sleeper configurations are also given.

Connections to the Hoboken Terminal are also listed, including motor coach service to Rockefeller Center, PS #63 bus to the PABT, PATH tubes, and the Barclay St. ferries (which then ran seven days a week, and would continue to do so until 1964)

By the time the late 1969 TT was issued, things had changed drastically (earlier that year, the last Hoboken-Buffalo trains had been axed)

The only through trains left were the "LAKE CITIES" runs (Hoboken-Chicago); buffet and buffet-lounge cars, as well as observation-lounges were gone.

The Barclay St. ferries were no longer listed, as they had been discontinued in November of 1967.

This 1969 TT was also the last that would list any through trains on the E-L.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though not ERIE-related, I wanted to share this interest "West Of Hudson" rail proposal from the early 1960's.......

Prior to the finalization of the Aldene Plan, there had been talk of retaining the PRR's Exchange Place depot after it was abandoned (November, 1961) and turn over operations to the CNJ.

In this way, the CNJ would have abandoned their Communipaw terminal, and, also, gain a long-sought connection to the H&M.

This would have, of course, required new track connections near Newark, not to mention a new coach yard (the Exchange Place station was unique in that it was the only Jersey City waterfront station not to have an adjacent coach yard, as did the ERIE and the CNJ).

Too, CNJ engines would still have to travel to the Communipaw engine terminal for servicing.

As the PRR's Exchange Place depot had the trains on the same level as the upper deck of the ferryboats, this would have presented a problem as well, as the CNJ's vast rush hour crowds would have overwhelmed the facility, in trying to reach the H&M platforms via elevators (unless, of course, some CNJ ferry service remained)

I've read that, had the elevated Exchange Place terminal been retained under PRR operations, it might have been a good "starting point" for certain "Metroliner" runs, this allowing lower Manhattan "Wall Streeters" to make a direct connection with the (MU) "Metroliners", without having to have to travel via subway uptown to Penn Station.......

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:


I've read that, had the elevated Exchange Place terminal been retained under PRR operations, it might have been a good "starting point" for certain "Metroliner" runs, this allowing lower Manhattan "Wall Streeters" to make a direct connection with the (MU) "Metroliners", without having to have to travel via subway uptown to Penn Station.......

"NYO"


I can't see that as happening....Most Metroliner's (and today's Acela's) stop at Newark, where they can make a cross-platform connection to the PATH World Trade Center trains.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:


I've read that, had the elevated Exchange Place terminal been retained under PRR operations, it might have been a good "starting point" for certain "Metroliner" runs, this allowing lower Manhattan "Wall Streeters" to make a direct connection with the (MU) "Metroliners", without having to have to travel via subway uptown to Penn Station.......

"NYO"


I can't see that as happening....Most Metroliner's (and today's Acela's) stop at Newark, where they can make a cross-platform connection to the PATH World Trade Center trains.


traildriver:

Though I admit such a scenario would have been interesting from a railfan's point of view, realistically, I concur with you 100%.

After the new Pennsylvania Station opened in 1910, long-distance trains were switched over to the new Manhattan facility, which relegated Exchange Place to commuter status (for some years, after WW1 and into the 1930's, some LV locals also used Exchange Place)

Prior to WW2, the PRR demolished the huge arched trainshed, which was similar to that of the Reading Terminal at Philadelphia.

When the H&M was shifted over to the new Penn Station in Newark in 1937, the "across-the-platform" option became available, which further diminished Exchange Place's role as even a commuter facility.

In the early 40's, the PRR removed all but two of the ferry slips, and sold off most of its large ferryboat fleet; it also abandoned the "Annex" ferry, largely a vehicular operation, that ran from Jersey City to Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn.

Most of the commuters using Exchange Place in those years were die-hards who opted for a brisk ferry ride to lower Manhattan, instead of the "Tubes".

With the ferries gone, many of these stalwarts simply began transferring to the H&M at Newark.

That Exchange Plce lasted in service as long as it did, serving so few customers, is still a mystery to me today.

As with the former ERIE terminal at Pavonia Avenue, not a trace whatsoever of the old Exchange Place depot remains today.

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except for the 'E' for "Erie" in the PATH Pavonia/Newport station... Wink

https://www.google.com/search?q=erie+rr+sign+at+path+pavonia+station+jersey+city+nj&sxsrf=ALeKk01SVio80n6GJi6Vx0XHk0XTJJ3B0A:1600894670421&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Metb8Ba3BBB5vM%252CQbp3IgOiDf45xM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSsQXmmUUfz_qstS5rSFtlGJ7ZuWA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijwJyxlYDsAhUJjlkKHVTLCY8Q9QF6BAgKEEE#imgrc=xP3DoDIPUYdl1M&imgdii=3tnJLZWaPTS-WM
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy (!!!!!)

NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I started exploring the former Pavonia terminal site in the late 1970's, and continued doing so until what was left was obliterated for the new "Newport" retail/commercial development.

Beginning in 1979, I passed through that station twice a day on HOB-WTC trains; this was when the station was still called "PAVONIA", and was still closed overnights and on weekends.

I still have a few rusty spikes that I found near the old ERIE platforms, and even a small green H&M wall tile that had come loose from the PATH station wall, near the old, long-abandoned "Speedwalk".

Back in the late 70's, at the head of the stairs leading up from the platform, there was, on one side, a long-closed token booth. Facing you, were two archways, sealed off by locked red sliding metal doors, and scissor gates; this was the former entrance to the "Erie Concourse" beneath the ERIE platforms.

At times, the Hudson River wind would whistle and whine underneath those doors, lending (pardon the pun!) a quite "ERIE" (eerie) aura to the desolate station(!!)

The PSNJ "PAVONIA" trolley made its last runs in 1938; oddly, there was no PS bus replacement for these cars (which ran between Union City and the terminal)......one of the local "indy" companies replaced the PS streetcars serving the terminal......

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More on the H&M/PATH platforms at "PAVONIA" (today's "NEWPORT" station).......a number of interesting photos and diagrams are here....

"NYO"

www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/pavonia.html
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little bit of related "trivia"........

One of William Gibbs McAdoo's ambitious (never built) plans for the H&M in the early yeas, was the "four tracking" of the downtown tubes, to add extra capacity to the route, especially during peak periods.

Actually, this "four tracking" would not have made for a four-track line (such as commonplace in New York), but rather, building an additional set of tubes that would have made landfall near the ERIE (Pavonia) station.

In fact, the track layout at Hudson Terminal was built in anticipation of this......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another interesting aspect of the early H&M (which also includes the ERIE station) was the short-lived baggage car service between Hudson Terminal and Hoboken.

A large baggage room was located on the main concourse at Hudson Terminal, connected to platform level via an elevator.

Once loaded, baggage wagons were transported one level down to train level; here, an open-side baggage car (a trailer) was waiting.

These baggage wagons were then rolled onto the car, the sides folded up, and the baggage would be delivered to the PENNSYLVANIA and ERIE stations in Jersey City, and the DL&W at Hoboken.

At each of these three terminals, elevators carried the baggage carts up to train level.

Interestingly, on some of the early Tube (Underground) lines in London, similar baggage-handling services were also employed; here, however, the luggage was loaded aboard a "driving motor" car that was equipped with a baggage compartment.....

"NYO"
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traildriver




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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...the only semblance of baggage "service" I can recall on the NY subways, was the luggage racks installed on the "JFK Express"....of course that was self-service...nothing checked... Wink
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