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Journal Square Transportation Center/HBLR/PSNJ/Etc.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:25 pm    Post subject: Journal Square Transportation Center/HBLR/PSNJ/Etc. Reply with quote

I always found it ironic that, after the completion of the (ughhh!) Journal Square Transportation Center in 1974, that, slowly but surely, bus services began to diminish.

By the 1980's and 1990's, even rush-hour runs of what was the NHBL #1 (prior to the NJT takeover) had dropped off dramatically; it was clearly that service on the #1 had been cut drastically since the 1960's and early 1970's.

In later years, especially, a number of undesirable individuals made using the terminal an experience that was not at all pleasant.

The outer ends of the PATH platforms were hazardous places to stand, as the platforms were encrusted with pigeon droppings from the bird's roosting places on the girders above (when PATH later hung inflatable owls from the girders to try to scare away the pigeons, it was nothing short of laughable!)

The only thing I miss about the Transportation Center was the glassed-in bus platform assignment board in the main concourse, that featured snapshots showing the front of each bus that used the terminal, showing different roller curtain readings (I sure hope someone saved them when this display case disappeared, many years ago; some Old Looks were also shown in these photos)

I have even read newspaper articles and editorials that directly link the Transportation Center to the decline of Journal Square; once the buses were removed from the Square itself, you knew that dismal times were indeed hovering on the horizon........

"NYO"


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:20 pm; edited 4 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_Square_Transportation_Center

*Some interesting historical data here; also, note the bus photos, one dating back to the RTS era.

There is also mention here of the Center leading to the overall decline of the Square, by removing the buses from the loading areas outside that were conveniently located to the stores and theatres.........
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking west from one of the old H&M station platforms, 1971.

Note the "joint service" K-class cars (formerly used in PRR/PATH service to Newark) as well as several "Black" cars (retired 1965) now in work service.

Up above on the "Boulevard" bridge, you can see that construction equipment is already in place; this would have been the approximate site where the NHBL buses (routes #'s 1 and 5) started their runs, and the starter's shack would have been located.

Indeed, it was the beginning of the end, all heralding a "new and improved" Journal Square.......

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?88099

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking east at Journal Square, 2009.

Here we see the PATH yards, as well as some old PRR catenary supports.

The low building over the tracks (built about 1956) was, for many years, the "J.M. FIELDS" discount department store"; next to it, the grand and opulent LOEW's theatre.........

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?103384

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 858
Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This outsider, who visited Journal Square once or twice yearly over seven decades, decries the moving of the bus stations from the public square to hidden lanes. What a waste of enormous funds! The sole improvement provided was protection from rain and snow.
---
It may be the fault of the lead architects. I contrast the new Mineola bus terminal, lanes protected from the weather but not hidden, and only a few steps from a train platform. Mineola restaurants and small businesses are, it is true, a few minutes away. The hospital that require a huge workforce is just across the tracks, and bridges are provided. Importantly,the auto garage does not require permits.


Last edited by N4 Jamaica on Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a bit of Journal Square history, still visible (2011)

Look up at the small lighted area in the support arches of the "Boulevard" bridge on the upper left; until the old H&M/PATH station closed, this was part of a passageway that connected the station with the J. M. FIELDS store on the west side of the Boulevard.

As a youngster, I remember finding it quite exciting to be able look down and see the trains down below, and know that there many buses rumbling along overhead........

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?143169

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4 Jamaica wrote:
This outsider, who visited Journal Square once or twice yearly over seven decades, decries the moving of the bus stations from the public square to hidden lanes. What a waste of enormous funds! The sole improvement provided was protection from rain and snow.
---
It may be the fault of the lead architects. I contrast the new Mineola bus terminal, lanes protected from the weather but not hidden, and only a few steps from a train platform. Mineola restaurants and small businesses are, it is true, a few minutes away. The hospital that require a huge workforce is just across the tracks, and bridges are provided. Importantly,the auto garage does not require permits.


Joe:

Growing up in Union City, we were only about a 10-15 minute ride from the Square; Mom enjoyed shopping at the many stores and shops there, and we also saw many movies over the years at both the "STANLEY" and the "LOEWS".

We also ate at the old NEDICK's (GREAT orange drinks and hot dogs!), and, on some occasions, at "NAPLES ON THE SQUARE", usually before or after my folks and I saw a movie.

When we took the #22 DE CAMP bus out to Verona to visit relatives, Mom always bought a cake at "5 CORNERS", before we boarded either an Old Look or an ACF-BRILL.

I can even remember seeing mounted police officers patrolling the Square, when I was quite young.

How exciting, busy, and glamorous it all seemed to a small lad, nearly 60 years ago.....

"NYO"


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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Journal Square, as I knew it growing up, in 1964 (see link at bottom)

Here the NHBL buses are ready to start their runs ( the #1 to Nungessers, the #5 to the PABT); here, Mom and I boarded the #1 too many times to count from the early 60's until we moved out to West Orange in the early 70's.

In just about 15 minutes, these same buses would be rumbling by only feet away from our apartment house on 13th St., just off the Boulevard.

It would not be until a few years later that the oldest NHBL buses began to be replaced by Fishbowls.

Look closely, and you can see the entrance in the "J.M. FIELDS" store facade that led to the passage that crossed over the H&M/PATH trains under the Boulevard, and connected to the old H&M station.

This area was like a second home to me, what I was a kid.......Very Happy

"NYO"

http://bus.nycsubway.org/perl/show?650

(courtesy: bus.nycsubway.org)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe:

Thought you might enjoy this 1930's photo of a 2400 series PS deck roof car assigned to the "JACKSON" line* (Jersey City)

Look on the left, and you will just be able to make out the old LVRR/CNJ station (it originally served trains out of the CNJ terminal on Johnston Avenue, but, in its later years, also served LVRR "doodlebug" locals that started their runs at the PRR's Exchange Place terminal, and later, a stub track adjacent to the LVRR float bridges on Johnston Avenue, across from the CNJ terminal.

When the "DIRECT LINE" (CNJ) to Newark was severed about 1946, the CNJ operated a shuttle train (with a Camelback at each end of the short consist!) for a few years before this service was abandoned.

When the HBLR was built, the railroad cut was filled in, but the old station remained, used as a church for many years.

From what I've read, the building was supposed to be preserved, but was torn down instead........

http://www.newdavesrailpix.com/psct/htm/psct035.htm

(courtesy: davesrailpix)

*The "JACKSON" line, along with the remaining HUDSON Division streetcar lines, was converted to buses in August, 1949.


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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a comprehensive site on the HBLR (many photos):

http://www.subwaynut.com/hblr/index.php

(courtesy: the subwaynut)

Over the years, I've read of proposals to extend the HBLR through the old "Bergen Archways" in Jersey City (once used by ERIE trains from the Pavonia Avenue terminal ), and also, to Journal Square.

I very much doubt that either will ever see the light of day, fo many reasons......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another very interesting book (photo-wise) is "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD IN JERSEY CITY" (Charles Caldes).

Though many of the photos (all b/w) are of good quality, others are fuzzy and indistinct.

Also, the captions are often (but not always) light-years away from stating the correct information; many errors are quite glaring, especially to the knowledgeable Jersey City-area rail historian.

There are also a few Journal Square photos in the book (H&M/PATH/PRR); one photo (quite spectacular) showing an aerial view of Journal Square, with a date of 1954.

The date more than likely is 1964 (or, at least, at least in the mid-60's); look closely in this photo, and you can see the "J.M. FIELDS" store; construction for this store did not begin at least for another year or so (circa-1956).

However, you can see two NHBL buses standing at the starter's shack on the Boulevard bridge, along with several other buses (all Old Looks)

Another aerial photo (mid-60's) shows Exchange Place in the mid-60's, all that remains of the old PRR terminal are two decaying ferry slips; a sightseeing boat an an excursion boat are seen docked at PIER "C".

The PS terminal and its shed has been torn down, and cars are now parked where the buses used to load; three Fishbowls (which appear to be PS) are seen parked at least a block west of the entrance to the PATH tubes.

No "indy" buses" are in this photo, which, sad to say is quite depressing in itself.

Despite the many errors in captioning, this book is still worthy of a place in your transportation library, especially if you are interested in Hudson County area-rail operations of years gone by.

There is so much in this book that I grew up with......

"NYO"


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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: Long Island

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the next costly expansion of the HBLR will be across Hwy 440 to the planned apartment houses on the Hackensack River.
---
Who is going to pay for it?
---
Link https://hudsoncountyview.com/murphy-hudson-bergen-light-rail-extension-to-jersey-citys-west-side-underway/
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

N4 Jamaica wrote:
Maybe the next costly expansion of the HBLR will be across Hwy 440 to the planned apartment houses on the Hackensack River.
---
Who is going to pay for it?
---
Link https://hudsoncountyview.com/murphy-hudson-bergen-light-rail-extension-to-jersey-citys-west-side-underway/


Joe:

Not only that, but they have been planning to extend the HBLR (which STILL does not serve Bergen County) in Bergen County, via ex-ERIE/E-L trackage for many years now, but NIMBY opposition has been too formidable.

The E-L abandoned passenger service on this line back in 1966.

For quite some time now, the HBLR has indeed been in a state of limbo; nothing even hints at HBLR service coming to Bergen County, anytime soon.

Over the next several years, it is going to be quite interesting to see what transpires, with the HBLR.......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More on the HBLR:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson-Bergen_Light_Rail
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N4 Jamaica




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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=

When the "DIRECT LINE" (CNJ) to Newark was severed about 1946, the CNJ operated a shuttle train (with a Camelback at each end of the short consist!) for a few years before this service was abandoned.

When the HBLR was built, the railroad cut was filled in, but the old station remained, used as a church for many years.[/quote]

Dad heard about the shuttle service, but the train we rode had the camelback only on the west end. During the return miles to Communipaw ferry terminal, the conductor gave instructions to the engineer by that hand-held air-hose signal device used for communication in other back-up moves.
---
I think we boarded or left the train at Jackson Avenue, as I have a memory of the Camelback and single coach there, with a conductor at the door of the west vestibule. In one direction we rode the full trip to/from whatever station near West Side Avenue.
---
I think it ironic that the grade crossing elimination was undone to improve security at the light rail station. Better to wait for a train in a public location than down hidden in a cut.
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