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HwyHaulier
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: GM Old Look - Ex Modesto CA |
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Some time back, saw photos of a smaller, GM "Old Look" type. Along lines of a TD*-31** design. The unusual fact about it: Delivered new at least
a decade after first "New Look" types in production. GM production records support the "small" Old Looks built well after the New Look designs...
Where is this ex Modesto coach now? I thought it had been in Pacific Bus Museum collection, but no report there at this date...
..................Vern.................. |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
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The Ohio Museum of Transportation's production records note that Modesto's 1967 TDH3501 #118 is preserved by the "Southern California Electric Railroad Association." I can't find any more information about that group, and OMOT's noted can be out of date. Maybe it's at Orange Empire Railway Museum? |
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HwyHaulier
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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ripta42 -
Hmmm... Many Thanks! So, I'm not hallucinating!
Guess our West Coast Vice President, Mr "L" might have a line on this...
...................Vern................ |
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Mr. Linsky BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Vern,
The following taken from page 24 of the 'Bus Nostalgia' series should enlighten you as to GM's special 3501's that were built through 1968;
Pictured below is fleet number 6516 – a 1965 GMDD Model TGH 3501 (ser# 0063) and one of four purchased by Stratford Public Utility Commission of Stratford, Ontario, Canada between 1964 and 1966.
The TGH 3501 was another of GM’s light duty transits powered by a 6 cylinder gasoline engine combined with a beefed up version of the same Dual Range HydraMatic transmission found on Cadillac and Oldsmobile cars of the era.
At 30 feet in length, this 35 passenger bus was ideal for small operators with low volume routes but was not as popular as its Toro-Flow Diesel powered cousin the TDH 3501 and only 116 were built between 1964 and 1968.
While the little ‘HydraMatics’ (as they were dubbed) appeared to be genuine ‘Old Looks’ and did share the same front and rear clips as well as side panels with their heavy duty siblings, all else was completely different and they were built on separate assembly lines.
Stratford Transit provides the local bus service in Stratford, Ontario. The system is owned and operated by the city as part of the Community Services Department.
Six bus routes operate on loops throughout the community on a 30 minute schedule that converge at City Hall. Service runs on Monday to Friday from 6:00 am to 9:30 pm and on Saturday from 6:00 am to 7:30 pm. There are also additional industrial and school services
Stratford is a city on the Avon River in Perth County in southwestern Ontario
with a population of 30,461, according to the 2006 census.
It is interesting to note that the pictured bus was manufactured by General Motors Diesel Division at a plant only a stones throw from Stratford in London Ontario.
Photo is by William A. Luke and is being used for educational purposes only.
Mr. Linsky – Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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HwyHaulier
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Mr "L" -
Many Thanks for this nice surprise!
IIRC, I had heard these were available with either gasoline or Diesel power.
..................Vern............... |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Yes they were, and many more were built as diesels. All told, 1,365 of the baby Old Looks were built between 1964 and 1968 before being replaced by the New Look 3301/3302. The first TDH3501 to roll off the assembly line in 1964 was a gas-turbine test bus that received a New Look front end; it's preserved by the Chicagoland Historical Bus Museum and has been converted by the museum to run on propane. |
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roymanning2000
Age: 75 Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 198
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Linsky,
You stated that the Stratford 3501 was built in Canada. I thought all of those buses were constructed at Pontiac. The serial numbers on Canadian-built buses seem to always have a "C" or "M" prefix. This one does not. Is it possible this bus was imported into Canada by GMDD?
Roy |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Roy; I think all 3501/3502s in Canada were built in Pontiac. |
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Mr. Linsky BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 5071 Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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My error,
The 3501's and 2's were built at Pontiac.
My information was erroneous.
Sorry about that.
Just goes to prove that I'm not perfect.
Mr. 'L' |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Good; we demand nothing more than less than perfection here! |
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HwyHaulier
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Ah, what GMC T&C did to confound all of us, now in the Time Machine and well removed from actual build dates...
Clearly, there were two different US sited GMC T&C assembly points? One did the much more familiar lines of city and highway coaches,
notable by the Dwight Austin Patent, transverse power plant designs.
Then, the other assembly site. The one that has fueled the long time discussions: Which came first, the Flxible Clippers, or the near look
alike "small" GMC highways? These products had the in line engine mount, and often had Buick gasoline power plants. BTW, the deal
about Clipper hints at a number of off the record, cordial lunch dates at golf and country clubs.)
The perplexing question: Where was the other site for GMC T&C work? Somewhere in the exhaustive Manufacturers thread here, IIRC,
Mr "L" has documented these coaches...
.................Vern.............. |
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roymanning2000
Age: 75 Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 198
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Linsky,
We don't need perfect here. It would make the rest of us know-it-alls look bad. You and the rest of the guys here have probably forgotten more about buses than I ever knew.
Roy |
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roymanning2000
Age: 75 Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 198
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Vern,
The Flxible Clipper went into production in 1939. Yellow answered with the Cruiserette series in 1940.
Flxible's ties to GM probably stem from its association with Charles F. Kettering. Kettering, the inventor of the automotive self-starter and countless other things, hailed from Loudonville, OH, the home of Flxible. He became the company's first president in 1914, serving until 1940 when he became chairman of the board. He continued to hold that position until his death in 1958.
At the same time, he was a GM executive. Kettering had started, along with two others, Dayton Engineering Laboratories, which became known as the DELCO division of GM. After selling DELCO, Kettering became GM's director of research and later was made a vice-president of the company. He retired in 1947 but continued to serve on GM's board until he died.
So, there certainly had to be benefits to Flxible over the years. That probably explains the availability of Buick and Chevrolet engines in the Clippers. And, the offering of 4-71 Detroit Diesel engines for the Visicoach beginning in 1950.
Roy |
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HwyHaulier
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 932 Location: Harford County, MD
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Roy -
Great to see you on board here...
Yep! You did a good Paul Harvey, with The Rest Of The Story! IIRC, in the era, Flxible was the sole outside builder with access to Detroit Diesel
power plants! Hadn't thought it through that it was all about the connections of Kettering and Ohio...
Funny thing. To this day, we see occasional accounts from present day, very much anti business biased, writers. They write of GMC, NCL, SoCal,
Firestone, Roger Rabbit, and whatever crosses their minds. Ever so wise for folks who were never there when it all happened. The conclusions
(although the examples are demonstrated nonsense): GM always the antichrist, and we all were warned!
What they never seem to get to report upon: That to this day, we have very large, humanitarian organizations, all with names on the doors
honoring Kettering and Sloan! So the memories live on! Perhaps they weren't such bad guys?
BTW. Clippers and Cruiserettes... Weren't both designs simply perfect collector coaches? Shoot! If one has more than a quarter acre lot, either
can find a home! Besides, neither could possibly use much more gasoline than a Jimmy Suburban or Cadillac Escalade... Sure would like
to have one for my runs to the grocery!
...................Vern................ |
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ripta42 Site Admin
Age: 45 Joined: 15 Apr 2007 Posts: 1035 Location: Pawtucket, RI / Woburn, MA
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Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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HwyHaulier wrote: | Funny thing. To this day, we see occasional accounts from present day, very much anti business biased, writers. They write of GMC, NCL, SoCal,
Firestone, Roger Rabbit, and whatever crosses their minds. Ever so wise for folks who were never there when it all happened. The conclusions
(although the examples are demonstrated nonsense): GM always the antichrist, and we all were warned! |
At the risk of going off-topic, such conspiracy theorists also seem to ignore the fact that National City Lines was the largest customer of the PCC. |
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