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Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 4 Fishbowls II
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Q65A



Age: 66
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Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Historical Buses of NYC: Gen 4 Fishbowls II Reply with quote

Curiously, historically-prolific Fishbowl buyers NYCTA and MaBSTOA never bought any new 5307’s or 5308’s. These agencies requested so many design changes over the basic Gen. 4 design that GM elected to produce 2 New York-specific Fishbowl models: the T6H-5309A and T6H-5310A. There certainly was historical precedent for making such a move: GM had done this in 1948 with the TDH-5101 for the BOT, and in the same year the TDH-4510 was very nearly a BOT-only model. Despite the odd and even suffixes, models T6H-5309A and T6H-5310A were 102” wide. The 5309A was designed mainly for local service, and was equipped with 43 blue, longitudinally-oriented, cantilever-mounted fiberglass seats. They were painted in the two-tone blue livery of the period. Parking lot heaters were not used on these units, but they were delivered with air conditioning, lever-type transmission controls, hoodlum lights, 2-way radios, EIP equipment, and manually operated front and side destination signs. NYCTA 6000-6139 were built in February-May 1972 (contract MB-21). MaBSTOA 4800-4859 were built in December 1972-February 1973 (contract MB-22OA). NYCTA 6200-6349 were built in January-February 1973 (contract MB-22). MaBSTOA 4860-4919 were built in July-August 1973 (contract number unknown). No other carriers bought new 5309A’s. 228 units were rebuilt by Blitz Body Co. in 1984-1985. Renumbered 5300-5527, the Blitz Buses were painted white and blue, and were assigned to both TA and OA depots. They served until they were replaced by ADB’s in 1995; none were preserved by the TA. T6H-5310A’s mechanically were very similar to T6H-5309’s, but they had 47 seats arranged in a 2-and-2 layout for express service. NYCTA 6164-6199 were built in February-March 1972 (contract MB-21); NYCTA 6901-6956 were built in December 1972-January 1973 (contract MB-22). MaBSTOA 4500-4505 were delivered during the same timeframe (contract MB-22OA). The only other carrier to buy new 5310A’s was MSBA, who bought 8 units in July 1973. 41 TA and MaBSTOA units were rebuilt by Blitz Body Co. in 1984-1985; renumbered 5528-5575, they worked in white and blue livery until 1995. None were preserved by the TA. Nationwide, the 1970’s were characterized by tough economic times, and New York City was particularly hard hit. Mass transit was not immune to the serious fiscal problems encountered by NYC. At the same time, Flxible had become a major player in the transit bus market, and was proving to be a formidable competitor to GM in the NYC area. As a consequence, after purchasing their fleets of 5309A’s and 5310A’s, both NYCTA and MaBSTOA would wait for 8 years before coming back to GM. By the time the DOB did come back, the venerable Fishbowl had been replaced by GM’s radical new ADB, the RTS-04.
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Mr. Linsky
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Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a little pictorial back-up to complement another ourstanding report by Q65A.

These special NYC Fishbowls looked great when they were new especially with the brushed chromium bumpers.

Photos borrowed from BusTalk Galleries for educational purposes only.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

MABSTOA # 4503

NEW YORK CITY # 6193
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B53RICH




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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the NYCTA 5309A order, I think you forgot to mention 6140-6163.
Also, for some reason 6948 was delivered as a 5309A with longitude seating. 6948 spent some time at FLU (CS) and Fifth Ave. (JG) depots. I don't know which depot it originally was delivered to. I once spotted this bus running along Metropolitan Ave. in Queens but never actually confirmed it ran as a B53 (Q54) out of FP.
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Waynejay



Age: 58
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

Good report there. These were always my favorite of the fishbowls, especially those from GMDD (GM of Canada). I was pretty young, but I do remember when the 5309A/10A were new. I lived near West Farms Square and I recall KB getting a bunch of them. It was also the time when the Third Ave el stopped operating and replaced by the BX-55. During those days KB used only the then-new 5309As on this route. One thing I'd change in your posting was the destinations sings. The front sign was electrically powered while the side sign was manually operated.
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Q65A



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies and additonal info WJ, B53Rich, and Mr. L!!!
Unfortunately, I think that (when I was living in Queens) I may have ridden a TA 5310A one time only (and ironically it was on X10 from Castleton & Jewett Aves. on S.I. to Midtown).
Did 5309A's operate on the Bx12 at any time? If so, I may have ridden one on Pelham Pkwy.
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Waynejay



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q65A wrote:

Did 5309A's operate on the Bx12 at any time? If so, I may have ridden one on Pelham Pkwy.


Yes they did. After MABSTOA got all of their 5309As (most went to KB, 4813-4832, 4860-4919), COL depot eventually rec'd 4833-4859. The Bx12 operated from COL depot. Bob you may have seen COL (Coliseum) depot from the Q44 bus at 177th Street-Devoe Ave. Today the current WF depot is on the site of the old COL.

The others... 4800-4812 were at HUD depot and OA's only 5310As (4500-4505) were at 100 Street depot.
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Q65A



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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Sept.-Oct. 1975 I regularly rode the following buses to get to Fordham U. from my home in Electchester:
1.) Q65 to Main St.-Roosevelt Ave.
2.) QBx-1 to Pelham Bay IRT station.
3.) Bx-12 toSouthern Blvd.-Fordham Road
Even for a bus fan, this trip was tiring.
I do recall seeing "COL" stencils on the Johnson fareboxes used on the Bx-12; perhaps I did get the chance to ride a MaBSTOA 5309A "back in the day".
Thanks for that info, WJ!
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Waynejay



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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

In those days in addition to GMC 5309A #4833-4859 the COL fleet consisted of a bunch of 5303s in the 3301-3535 and 5201-5525 group. These buses had the forward facing 2X2 seating in the rear half of the bus. COL also had a lot of 6401-6900 series 5303s and rounding out the group was Flxibles 111CCD51 #4664-4720.

These pics of COL buses are at BusTalk in the TA/OA galleries.




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Q65A



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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting those terrific pix, WJ!
That center shot of MaBSTOA 3431 really jogs my memories!
Directly in the center of the photo (with the Fordham University sign) is Faculty Memorial Hall. The gray tower to the right is Keating Hall (atop which WFUV-FM had its broadcasting antenna). The tall apartment house in the left background appears to be 555 E. 191st Street, which was a Fordham dorm.
Those Fishbowls working the Bx-12 often would be packed to the windshield headed eastbound up the hill from Fordham Plaza. The crowds were so heavy that I sometimes could not even pay my fare until the bus got as far east as Williamsbridge Rd.
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mercurygrandmarquis1




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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you mentioned the were delivered with hoodlum lights what exactly are they?
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Waynejay



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mercurygrandmarquis1 wrote:
you mentioned the were delivered with hoodlum lights what exactly are they?


Whenever I hear the term hoodlum lights, I think of MBTA. Their buses have a pair of green lights on the front and rear end of their buses. They can be activated by the bus operator to get attention of police in the event of trouble on the bus.





NYCTA transit buses purchased since 1968 has had two extra yellow lights on the front end. In the event of trouble or an emergency on the bus operator could activate these lights.
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This 1972-73 order also signified a change in how routes were designated. For the first time all routes would bear borough initial prefices before the number, as printed on new rollsigns. This exposed not only route number duplications as had already existed before (i.e. M1 Fifth/Madison and Madison/Chambers, M6 Sixth/Broadway and 72nd Street crosstown, M20 57th and 116th Street crosstowns) but in some cases triplications and even duplications on top of duplications, leading to many routes being renumbered effective July 1, 1974. Two that stick out like the proverbial sore thumb - both MaBSTOA routes - are:
- QM15 - ex FACCo Fifth and Madison Avenues/Jackson Heights line, nomenclature duplicative of then-Green Bus Lines' Woodhaven/Lindenwood route that is today operated under MTA auspices; 15 was also triplicate due to two other routes, both designated M15, the NYCTA First and Second Avenues line and MABSTOA's (ex NYCO) 23rd Street crosstown that later became M26 and is today M23 (this QM15 became M32 in 1974, and Q32 in 1989)
- QM16 - another ex FACCo line, this time the Elmhurst crosstown that did not pass through so much as a grain of sand of Manhattan; this designation owed to both the other route #16, ex NYCO 34th Street crosstown, designated M16 and now M34+SBS, plus NYCTA's Q16 which, then as now, signified the NYCTA's Fort Totten route; plus it, like QM15, assigned out of the 54th Street depot in Manhattan; ironically, this designation duplicated another Green Bus Lines express bus route, running from Far Rockaway or Neponsit to Manhattan (this one changed in 1974 to Q89 but by the '80's was discontinued due to low ridership)


Last edited by W.B. Fishbowl on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:37 am; edited 3 times in total
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Q65A



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an excellent point W.B. Fishbowl. I personally always liked the white on blue route #/route signs paired with the white on red destination signs.
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That, I think, signified the other major leap - reclassifying all Staten Island routes from an 'R' to an 'S' prefix (following the borough name change of what had been the Borough of Richmond). The 1975 Flxible 53102-6-1's for NYCTA and MaBSTOA, I seem to recall, were the first to have the split blue/red front rollsigns.

Last edited by W.B. Fishbowl on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waynejay wrote:
The others... 4800-4812 were at HUD depot

I remember well when the 5309A's began showing up on the M11 route in or around early '73. As a wee lad, having only seen green buses up to that point, I thought they were from a different world.
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