BusTalk

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

(SEE PREVIOUS POSTS)

Subway notes (continued from 1999).............

"OOS train ("Redbirds") heading southbound on express track at TSQ/7th Avenue line is shunted onto Track 'M' and halts"

"Major issue in Brooklyn (IRT #2/#3......all Bronx-bound service halted; took Brooklyn-bound #2 to Borough Hall; walked to Lexington Avenue station and took #4 back to GC; transferred to #7 to TSQ" (this was during PM rush, as Your's Truly trying to head back uptown to the PABT)

"Some original signage still remaining at BMT station (TSQ)"

"Due to 'equipment problems', all Coney Island-bound express trains are being switched onto the local tracks at Parkside Avenue, and then making all local stops to Stillwell Avenue [Coney Island]" (2:30 PM, 7/9/99, Friday)

[W.B. Fishbowl]

I was taking my own notes in that time period - namely, the total length of IND stations and distance between them. And a good thing too, as not long after refurbishments were done that cut back their length by about 45 feet. Until SubChat and BusChat imploded, there was some archive where the lengths of each of the stations were mentioned, using their "chain" system.

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B>

Ahhhh, so SubChat/BusChat DID "implode"........this explains why the site has been down for a number of weeks now......wondering now if it will ever return?

Good thing for you that you took those notes when you did; I recall now that you have quite an extensive knowledge on the "Eye-En-Dee's" stations, construction, etc, which I always found most interesting.

Since Your's Truly took those notes 25 years ago, so much has changed; all the classic "SMEE" rolling stock has vanished, tokens have also disappeared, along with the last remaining old-type turnstiles.

You could still "fan" the system without worrying about almost-daily stabbings and shootouts.

Traditional block signalling was then still in use, and, of course, railfan windows abounded.

The #7 was still 100% "Redbird", and still terminated at TSQ.

Those distinctive "Slant 40s" were still riding the rails, as were the "mainline" 40s, 42s, as well as the iconic "Brightliners" and, of course, "Brightliner Wannabes" (R-38s)

Cannot believe it is now 25 years already (no gray hair, back then!), since I was taking my aforementioned notes.......

"NYO"

["INDEPENDENT SUBWAY SYSTEM"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Speaking of "chaining"

It was not until I purchased my (now well-worn) copy of "TRACKS OF THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY" (at the good ol' NYCTM) that I got the real "inside scoop" on signal "chaining"; here, indeed, things can get quite complex, to say the least!

I also learned that, on the subway, there is no east or west; everything is either "north" or "south"; look at the SIRT.....trains to Tottenville are, technically speaking, heading SOUTH from St. George (Tottenville, interestingly, is the southernmost rail station in New York), while trains heading back to St. Geore are heading NORTH....BUT, terminology has Tottenville trains heading WEST, while St. George-bound trains are heading EAST!

When this edition of "TRACKS" was published (1999); there were three locations where special "gap filler signals" were being used:

SOUTH FERRY (now closed loop station)

UNION SQUARE

TIMES SQUARE (shuttle)

This book, along with "UNDER THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK" (Cudahy) and "UPTOWN, DOWNTOWN" (Fischler) indeed broadly expanded my knowledge of the "Noo Yawk" subways, a few decades back.............

"NYO"

["SHUTTLE"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Speaking of signalling.................

When the system becomes entirely CBTC, I wonder how this will effect the operation of future "Nostalgia Trains" and "Holiday Specials", which, of course, use vintage equipment.

As I've said the past a number of times, the old tried-and-true block signal system (that is, what remains of it) should be retained as a "back up" system, in case of a system-wide CBTC outage.

And, I've been hearing on 1010 WINS, MULTIPLE issues now involving both numbered and lettered lines.

Their traffic reporter, Greg Rice, made this comment:

"......there are multiple delays on a number of subways lines, none of which are earthquake related, but, what else is new?"

As Dr. Suess's "Lorax" once said:

"Sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

"Mr. Lorax", indeed, should pay a visit to the "Em-Tee-Yays" rail network today.............

"NYO"

["X-12R"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

The "Eye-En-Dee"..........

It's been said that the IND represented the very epitome of modern subway construction and design, especially when compared to the older BMT and IRT.

It is too bad that the many planned extensions/routes of the IND were never built, even though many provisions had been built into the original layout.

Imagine now, if you will:

A six-track Second Avenue line north of 61st Street

The Concourse line extended via 205th Street to Baychester Avenue and Boston Road

2nd Avenue line taking over the IRT's White Plains and Pelham lines (there was also talk of having the SAS run along the former NYW&B to Dyre Avenue, and, perhaps, even beyond)

No 63rd Street tunnel, BUT a 61st Street line from 6th Avenue to 2nd Avenue northbound

Extension of the Liberty Avenue subway to Springfield Boulevard

Connection from 78th Street on the Jamaica line via Fresh Pond Road, Central Avenue, and the LIRR to the Rockaways

And this is only a sampling of the many proposals for the extensions of the IND, back in the early days.........

"NYO"

["HH FULTON ST. LOCAL"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Alas, what might have been...........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_New_York_City_Subway

["AA CHAMBERS STREET"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

See also: *

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Subway_System

["8th AVENUE SUBWAY"]

*Very detailed "in depth" article (also photos/maps)

[traildriver]

Test

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Just thinking...........

As the Dyre Avenue line WAS actually operated as a part of the IND (go figure!), I could easily see new cars built along the general lines of the IND's rolling stock, but, like the old "Westchester" cars, having vestibules and suburban-type/rapid transit-style seating.

Interesting to consider the City purchasing the former NYW&B line BEYOND Dyre Avenue, pushing further northward into former "Westchester" territory.

Recall, it was the NYW&B's lack of direct access into Manhattan (unlike the parent NH) that was a major nail in its corporate coffin; had a new IND line been built (or the SAS) and operated over the former "Westchester", direct access to not only Manhattan, but also Brooklyn, would have been made available to commuters; and yet, there was a lot of beefing from daily "Westchester" commuters who had to transfer to the subway (IRT) at E. 180th Street.....go figure.

Ironically, the vast majority of NH (and NYC) commuters HAD to transfer to the IRT at Grand Central anyway

Indeed, the refurbished open-platform El cars that ran as shuttles on the line from 1941 and into the 1950s, were quite a "comedown" from the big, roomy, plush green MU's that had operated on the NYW&B until late 1937..........

"NYO"

["EXPRESS-WHITE PLAINS"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Here's an interesting page on the Dyre Avenue station; this was, until late 1937, the northernmost station in the Bronx for the NYW&B............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastchester-Dyre_Avenue_station

["SHUTTLE"]

[W.B. Fishbowl]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

W.B.:

Agreed.

As the Dyre Avenue shuttle, in those days, was a "miniscule" operation, I could see a small group of "Arnines" being transferred up to the Dyre Avenue line for service there.

After all, these cars were closer in dimension and capacity to the old "Westchester" MU's than the old surplus El cars which served the line from 1941, until the early 1950s, when Hi-V's replaced them.

In Rodger Arcara's "WESTCHESTER'S FORGOTTEN RAILROAD", he also mentions about the former NYW&B platforms at E.180th Street possibly being put back into use, if the SAS was built and then extended over the Dyre Avenue line.

Up in Canada, through the 60s, CN had a large fleet of "juice hauled" heavyweight commuter cars whose interiors were a combination of suburban commuter and rapid transit.

I could easily see new cars for the Dyre Avenue line (again, extended further into former NYW&B territory) having a similar interior layout.

And again, you have to wonder as to why the the Dyre Avenue line, if it was, in fact, operated as part of the "Eye-En-Dee", utilize fornmer INTERBOROUGH El cars?

Alas, we'll never know the reason why for sure.........

"NYO"

["NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT SYSTEM"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

In this nostalgic early 1950s view, we see a two car IRT Dyre Avenue shuttle train ("Hi-Vs") crossing a former NYW&B viaduct, up in "da Bronx")

Look closely (middle left) and you will see the brackets on the steelwork that had once supported a "Westchester" catenary bridge........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6872

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["I.R.T. LINES"]

[NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629]

Same location as the previous photo, this time featuring a train of ex-2nd Avenue El cars..........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31274

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["SHUTTLE"]