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MaBSTOA T6H-5309A (and El replacement buses)
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2378
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FACCo, NYCO and FACL rolling stock - and so, too, Surface, after FACL acquired it - seemed to have no problem with readable end destination signs on the right side of their front roll signs. FACL and Surface Fishbowls, especially.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

It would have been interesting, to say the least, to see what post-"Borough Bomber" roller curtains might have looked like, had the "Em-Tee-Yay" not gone full-ahead into the electronic sign era.

Recall, also, that, the oldest subway cars still in service (such as the R-62's, R-68's, etc.) originally featured roller curtains, before they were later replaced by electronic signage (do the R-68's still have roller curtains?)

It was not until the NTT equipment began arriving some two decades ago, that new equipment entered service with electronic signage only.

The Flex METROS I recall riding/commuting on for years on ACADEMY's #22 and Boulevard East routes featured HUGE roller curtains, before finally being replaced with electronic signs (the drivers, like myself, much preferred the roller curtains)

On the rush-hour Boulevard East line, the HUGE roller curtain font spelled out:

"HOBOKEN PATH TUBES"

You could see these signs from almost a block away.

And so it goes....

"NYO"

["22 HILLSIDE"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaBSTOA roller curtains, back in the day......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153789

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153829

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["2-CONCOURSE HUB"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FACCo........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155400

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154383

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["2 to 155 ST"]
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2378
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
FACCo........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?155400

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154383

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["2 to 155 ST"]

#467, however, was New York City Omnibus on the #14 route.
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2378
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
MaBSTOA roller curtains, back in the day......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153789

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153829

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["2-CONCOURSE HUB"]

That's what I mean about these FACL and ST originals, the split roll signs; they had the destination in a full window and not a small peephole as the 'Tee-Yay' had.

The original Fishbowl roll signs - both sides - were among the first to sport Transign mylar curtains. Obviously these cloth ones were replacements circa 1964.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22281
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MACK destination sign comparisons (that "slit" used on the newer model indeed seems to make no sense whatsoever)...... Rolling Eyes

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156965

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?156966

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

{M-15 CHATHAM SQ."]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"AVENUE B" rollsigns (Fishbowl/MACK)........

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153081

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153008

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["M7-EXPRESS"]
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
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Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avenue B must've favored the singular roll sign taking up the entire front destination sign on top. Wonder what would have influenced the 'Tee-Yay' in that direction when they ordered their first Fishbowls in 1959. We know that on the routes formerly operated by Fifth Avenue Coach Lines' FACO and NYCO Divisions and Surface Transit, single front destination roll signs didn't first appear on bus rolling stock till the first made-for-MaBSTOA buses first appeared on the streets of Manhattan and the Bronx in 1963.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

The following is from "NEW LOOK BUSES" (McKane/Squier):

"......at the same time, roller-sign material was changed from cloth type-material to Mylar. This new material was more translucent, lighter in weight, and more durable......"

".......use of Mylar, as well as additional space provided inside the sign cavity, enabled the use of curtain rolls long enough to contain over 100 readings, more than doubling previous capacities....."

"........because of this new design, it was no longer possible for the driver to view the displayed reading through a peephole. instead, index labels were placed along the edge of the curtain; these labels could be read through and access hold in the sign cover, and were placed such that when the label was centered in the window, the reading was positioned for optimum viewing from the bus interior....."

".......this design required a sign-holding apparatus of a triangular shape, consisting of three rollers-two that were controlled by a crank, and an idler that kept sign curtains in place behind the viewing glass......"

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Late 1960's roller curtain comparisons (Fishbowl/"Dangerfield")

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153215

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154573

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["MADISON-CHAMBERS"]
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 57
Joined: 02 Oct 2014
Posts: 2378
Location: New York, New York, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Late 1960's roller curtain comparisons (Fishbowl/"Dangerfield")

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?153215

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154573

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["MADISON-CHAMBERS"]

I could easily imagine the '1 Madison-Chambers' on that Dangerfield at the Park Row/City Hall area. That whole roll sign thing dates to 1960, when the first 'Tee-Yay' Fishbowls were first assigned to Manhattan.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

You're the man for this.....

Did each garage/depot have its own "sign shop", or was this the sort of work done in only the larger facilities?

Also, when were the last cloth curtains replaced by Mylar?

Appreciate info.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While on the subject of roll signs, recall some Old Look suburbans having a small sign box, just behind the door.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?154483

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["CHARTER"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thinking......

I think it goes without saying that today's modern, hi-tech (and inspit) transit rolling stock is built of far less sterner stuff that the equipment of long ago.

Imagine a MACK C-50 taking on one of "milk cartons" of today?

Picture a BMT "Standard" having a not-so-gentle encounter with an R-143? (OUCH!!!) Shocked Shocked Shocked

Those near-prehistoric "Beasts Of Steel" were virtually indestructible!

It took a SERIOUS encounter, indeed, to take one of these beasts out!

One of the reasons that the old equipment lasted so long in regular service is that they were MACHINES....and NOT "rolling computers".

Boston, at present, has yanked all new Red and Orange line cars from service, due to many issues (and, to think that many "old generation" rolling stock in Boston lasted many decades in service, without being plagued by "tech" issues, ditto, "Noo Yawk")

Too, CBTC is now taking over the subways, replacing the time-honored block signals, that have served since the early years of the 20th century.

Almost every day, I hear of "multiple signal issues" on both the subways and PATH, on 1010 WINS.

Back in the day, mechanics and electricians handled the situations that arose, deftly, both above and under the ground.

Today, you need a team of crack NASA techs to assist an ailing subway car or bus. Sad

Progress....... Rolling Eyes

"NYO"
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