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South, East, and all around the town.......
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver wrote:
Imagine, if they found a way to connect the line, with the IND's own Concourse line. Shocked The IRT would have had real competition in Bronx...


traildriver:

"Great minds DO think alike", it seems; I had long pondered the thought of the IND being extended into the far upper reaches of the Bronx, giving the old IRT a run for its money! Wink

Recall, too, there was serious talk in the early 30's, of having the IND (using a connection from the new 8th Avenue line) travel over the lower level of the GWB (the lower level, when it did open in the early 1960's, was, of course, for vehicles only.

The IND would have had the prestigious distinction of being the ONLY subway line to enter New Jersey! (we're not talking the H&M, here!)

I've read that, had the IND crossed over into New Jersey, a new multi-model facility would have been built at the Fort Lee end of the span (imagine!)

This would have been atkin to the KEY's orange electrics crossing the lower level of the Bay Bridge, to the new Transbay Facility, itself now a part of history......

"NYO"

["IND"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that, originally, four "rapid transit tracks" were to run to New Jersey, via the lower level of the GWB......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_Bridge
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imagine a scene like this taking place on the GWB, with IND trains heading into New Jersey? Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?70659

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["QJ-Coney Island"}
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IRT's Flushing line and the BMT's Canarsie line crossing the Hudson into New Jersey? Shocked Shocked

Read on........ Wink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_New_York_City_Subway#Subways_to_New_Jersey

{"Ride The Rapid!"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recall, also, that, early in the H&M's history, there were proposals to extend "The Tubes" south through Jersey City and, also Bayonne, and then through a new set of tubes under the busy Kill Van Kull to Staten Island.

This I could not conceive of ever seeing the light of day, as, at the time (and for many decades afterwards) all rail traffic on Staten Island was under the control of the mighty B&O, which, also, encompassed the SIRT.

I don't think that the B&O would not have much tolerated an "upstart" rapid transit line from New Jersey "invading" their territory!

Back to the subways themselves, I've read that, at the stub terminal (IND) at the WTC (Hudson Terminal) which today serves the "E" (and, at one time, also served the long-defunct "AA" and the old "CC") that tracks were aligned such that they would have continued under the East River via new tunnels to Brooklyn Heights, where they would have then connected to the Court Sreet stubs (today's NYCTM)........

"NYO"

["INDEPENDENT""]


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed May 18, 2022 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting "interactive" page......

https://project.wnyc.org/lost-subways/

["New York City Transit System"]


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Wed May 18, 2022 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the course of this discussion, I've talked much about the old IRT and BMT elevated lines; none of the Manhattan Els survive today, and, even in Brooklyn, many El lines have long since-vanished, with little or nothing remaining.

This outstanding page (many old and recent photos and maps) is dedicated to the fleeting remains of long-gone Chicago "L" lines.

After the CTA was formed in the late 1940's, no less than seven "L" lines were closed and demolished.

This is an excellent, interesting, detailed page*.....

https://forgottenchicago.com/features/remnants-of-the-l/

*(A number of the older photos here are quite reminiscent of Brooklyn, back in the "days of the El")
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting page on the the "IND Second System's" unfinished stations (many photos and diagrams).....

www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/indsecsys.html
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Truly amazing that there were so many plans for expansion of New York's subways throughout the decades, and how so few (if any) proposals ever saw the light of day (this is a VERY detailed and comprehensive article)....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_expansion_of_the_New_York_City_Subway
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
In the course of this discussion, I've talked much about the old IRT and BMT elevated lines; none of the Manhattan Els survive today, and, even in Brooklyn, many El lines have long since-vanished, with little or nothing remaining.


True enough, but there is this...as close to an "El" as you're going to get in Manhattan. Wink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/125th_Street_station_(IRT_Broadway%E2%80%93Seventh_Avenue_Line)#/media/File:122ndStreetPortal1train.jpg

Of course, you also have the Metro North Park Avenue viaduct, with its 125th Street Station, even less an 'El'....
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

Over the years, I have heard "Els" referred to simply as "Els" or "elevated subways" (I guess this holds quite true for "El" lines today in the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens)

Mom always simply used the term "elevated".

Recall the prewar olive-drab NYCRR MU's which, along with the prewar MU's of the NH, once rolled along the viaduct leading to and from the Park Avenue tunnel; it gave you at least a fleeting idea of what the NYW&B's big green MU's would have looked liked, had they been able to access Grand Central.....

"NYO"

["There's More Room On The El"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Elevated elevated" (in triplicate!) Very Happy

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75913

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Queensborough Plaza"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Subways on stilts".... Wink

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?101409

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75586

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Broadway Junction"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting "contrast" views of interlocking towers built to straddle elevated tracks (NYC/NH/MN, Park Avenue viaduct) and, also (seen in the distance) at Sands Street*, Brooklyn (BMT)

*The overhead girderwork were guides for the wires used by the B&QT streetcars crossing the Brooklyn Bridge.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?93326

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?46908

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Sands St."]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a much better view of the BRT/BMT interlocking tower at the complex Sands Street station, straddling the tracks; note the complex, fascinating ganglia of overhead steelwork for the trolley wires......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?118067

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This photo shows another "free standing" BMT tower, this one at Ralph & Broadway, circa-1950............

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31079

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["B.& Q. T."]
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