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South, East, and all around the town.......
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Westchester"......on the "El".......

One of the major drawbacks for the NYW&B was, of course, the lack of direct, one-seat access into Manhattan (unlike the parent NH)

NYW&B commuters were forced to change to either the El or the subway in the Bronx, to complete their trips into Manhattan; this, of course, played a major factor in the grandoise line's eventual demise.

Recall, in Chicago, the heavy interurban trains of the CA&E and CNS&M (North Shore) boated direct service into the Loop via the "L".

The CA&E lost its access to the Loop not long before all passenger service in 1957; the North Shore, however, continued to serve the Loop (via the "L") until all service was abandoned in early 1963.

Now, imagine had the "Westchester" been able to travel all the way downtown into the Financial District, via an INTERBOROUGH elevated line.

Again, a good idea, to be sure, but one that presented too many challenges to make it a reality.

Firstly, the spindly old elevateds would have had to been rebuilt to accomodate the weight of the NYW&B's heavy steel MU's.

Secondly, clearances (especially at stations) would have meant for extensive and expensive alterations to platforms and other station infrastructure; too, there surely would have been clearance issues with INTERBOROUGH signals along the line.

Of course, there would have also been the added expense of having the NYW&B's MU's fitted out for joint catenary/third rail operations.

Given so many "cons", it is a wonder that the "Westchester" lasted as long as it did.

Truly sad, though.....like the great Roman Empire, the "Westchester" represented a standard was the quite high and opulent.....and,like the Roman Empire, this grand electric railway eventually ceased to exist, save for a lingering "monument" here and there.

It is also important to remember that the "Westchester" was most certainly NOT an "interurban", like the parent NH's electrified lines out of Grand Central (as well as the NYCRR's) this was a massive, heavy-duty, solidly-built electric RAILROAD.

"NYO"

["Sic Transit Gloria!"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 22282
Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recall, also, that the NYW&B's ROW lay dormant until 1941, when, after the City purchased the abandoned ROW in the Bronx for the Dyre Avenue line (opened 1941)

In Chicago, a similar scenario took place after the demise of the North Shore in 1963; the CTA purchased a short stretch of the former CNS&M and created the "Skokie Swift", which, until fairly recently, used overhead wires.

Here again, we had a short stretch of a heavy-duty electric railroad being revived for rapid transit operations.

One can only imagine what the current transit picture might have been like, had the City extended the Dyre Avenue line deeper into former "Westchester" territory, and had the CTA extended the "Swift" further into former North Shore territory........

"NYO"

["Ride the 'L'! "]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once upon a fabled yesteryear, powerful and speedy electric interurban trains like these rumbled and swayed their way into the heart of Chicago's "Loop" district, via the "L"......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?20839

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?56246

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?56197

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["The Great Third Rail"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....interesting, too, that only WOODEN equipment ran on the Manhattan section of the 3rd Avenue El, while STEEL cars (Lo-V's/R-12's) could (and did) operate on the Bronx section.

Too, recall that the Bronx El lines utilized both elevated and subway-type third rails, and appropriate shoes were used on the rolling stock that ran along its burnished rails (likewise, at one time, the BMT* Culver line).......

"NYO"

["INTERBOROUGH"]

*The BMT only utilized such an arrangement where dual services operated; the IRT, interestingly, also utilized two types of third rails on lines with dual services....


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon May 16, 2022 6:18 pm; edited 4 times in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting (and detailed) page on the 3rd Avenue E;; note the postcard view showing the "double-deck" elevated lines in the Bowery (what a sight that had to have been!) Very Happy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRT_Third_Avenue_Line
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several views of IRT third rail shoes*......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45216

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45145

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?45151

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27925

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2703

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["IRT Lines"]

*(At one time, the IRT used an angled shoe that could run off of either elevated or subway-style third rails; recall, in Queens, prior to 1950, you had IRT subway trains running to Flushing, and BMT El car shuttles to Astoria.


Last edited by NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 on Mon May 16, 2022 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a few views of BMT third rail shoes......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6346

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75623

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?112529

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["BMT Lines"]
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 2452
Location: South Florida

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
"The Westchester"......on the "El".......

One of the major drawbacks for the NYW&B was, of course, the lack of direct, one-seat access into Manhattan (unlike the parent NH)

NYW&B commuters were forced to change to either the El or the subway in the Bronx, to complete their trips into Manhattan; this, of course, played a major factor in the grandoise line's eventual demise.

Recall, in Chicago, the heavy interurban trains of the CA&E and CNS&M (North Shore) boated direct service into the Loop via the "L".

The CA&E lost its access to the Loop not long before all passenger service in 1957; the North Shore, however, continued to serve the Loop (via the "L") until all service was abandoned in early 1963.

Now, imagine had the "Westchester" been able to travel all the way downtown into the Financial District, via an INTERBOROUGH elevated line.

Again, a good idea, to be sure, but one that presented too many challenges to make it a reality.

Firstly, the spindly old elevateds would have had to been rebuilt to accomodate the weight of the NYW&B's heavy steel MU's.

Secondly, clearances (especially at stations) would have meant for extensive and expensive alterations to platforms and other station infrastructure; too, there surely would have been clearance issues with INTERBOROUGH signals along the line.

Of course, there would have also been the added expense of having the NYW&B's MU's fitted out for joint catenary/third rail operations.

Given so many "cons", it is a wonder that the "Westchester" lasted as long as it did.

Truly sad, though.....like the great Roman Empire, the "Westchester" represented a standard was the quite high and opulent.....and,like the Roman Empire, this grand electric railway eventually ceased to exist, save for a lingering "monument" here and there.

It is also important to remember that the "Westchester" was most certainly NOT an "interurban", like the parent NH's electrified lines out of Grand Central (as well as the NYCRR's) this was a massive, heavy-duty, solidly-built electric RAILROAD.

"NYO"

["Sic Transit Gloria!"]


As an alternate, since it was a New Haven subsidiary for many years, why couldn't they use the New Haven to get into GCT?
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildriver:

I have often wondered the same thing, especially since the "Westchester's" parent company was the NH.

The New Haven's MU's switched from catenary to third rail "on the fly", north of Grand Central; the NYW&B's cars could have easily done likewise.

And, at GCT, "Westchester" commuters would have been able to avail themselves to several busy IRT subway lines, as did the commuters who commuted via the NYCRR or the NH........

"NYO"

["Ride The Westchester!]"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly enough, the Dyre Avenue line, in its inception, was a true conglomeration; its rolling stock was from the IRT, its signals were surplus from the BMT, and it was operated as a part of the IND (in fact, the train crews were from the IND!)

Platforms at the former "Westchester" stations had to be adjusted to handle the narrower IRT cars, and coin-operated turnstiles were installed in all of the Dyre Avenue line's former NYW&B station houses.

The NYW&B's Harlem River terminal was hardly conducive for "direct" Manhattan-bound commuters, even though they COULD, indeed, transfer to the IRT's elevated shuttle trains that ran to 129th St. (3rd Avenue line); at E. 180th St., of course, NYW&B commuters could transfer to the IRT's subway and El trains.

In the passenger surveys of the day, "Westchester" riders said they would pay a higher fare for a direct service into Grand central, rather than to pay a lower fare, and have to transfer to the crowded IRT trains at E. 180th. St........

"NYO"

[",E. 180th St Subway.-Dyre Ave."]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this circa-1936 photo, we see a one-car NYW&B train leaving the 133rd St./Harlem River terminal; note that this area was then heavily industrialized, and not at all an area that was conducive to "white collar" commuter traffic......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?76447

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["Westchester"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IRT's Dyre Avenue shuttle, when opened, had been a "snap" to convert for rapid transit operation, when compared to the massive rehabilitation/rebuilding that was required for the IND's ex-LIRR Rockaway line, as can be seen from these photos......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?1103

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?2368

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?5688

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?25626

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

{"HH-Far Rockaway"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The former LIRR station building at Far Rockaway still looks much as it did decades ago, when the LIRR's owl-eyed MP-54's called here; note, also, the 1950's-style "SUBWAY" sign.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?27019

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["SUBWAY"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the same station building as seen previously, as it was back in the 1930's, and serving the LIRR.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?58012

["The Route Of The Dashing Commuter"]
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two sharply-contrasting views of this same station; one dates back to the LIRR days, while the second photo dates to the "modern" subway era.

Note, also, that, back in the LIRR days, there were no high-level platforms in place at this station.......

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?76039 *

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?152023

(courtesy: nycsubway.org)

["LIRR/NYCTA"]

*Those old, once-familiar MP-54's sure look like they are putting on a "happy face"! Very Happy
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