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#11 BUS LINE (CHRISTOPHER ST., 1952)
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: NEW JOISEY

PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given what we've discussed here, it would seem that the heaviest bus routes serving the Hudson River ferries were those running along W. 42nd St. (until March, 1959), and W. 125th St (until December, 1950)

With only boats of the DL&W serving the W. 23rd St. terminal after 1942, traffic on that line would have been dwindling (at least on the portion nearing the Hudson River waterfront), with the ferries of two railroads no longer operating to this terminal, and none at all after December, 1946.....

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After the 125th St. Ferry shut down in December, 1950, there was still some maritime connections (albeit seasonal) with the Hudson River Day Line; this lasted until 1964, when the famed Day Line discontinued service to the 125th St. pier.

Of course, today's MTA bus passengers can still connect (in season) with Circle Line boats, at the foot of W. 42nd St.

Recall, also, into the 70's, the Day Line's main pier was also at this location (actually, at the foot of W. 41st St.)......

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buses connecting with ferries.......

As I had mentioned earlier, PSNJ (until 1943) operated the 125th St. Ferry ("ELECTRIC FERRIES" operated the line from 1943 until it shut down in 1950)

Throughout the years, a number of local PS streetcar routes (until 1938), and later, bus routes, connected with the ferryboats at Edgewater.

Of course, in Manhattan, South Ferry has long been a busy spot for buses connecting with the Staten Island boats.

A couple of quick questions:

1:

What routes terminated at South Ferry, in the time span of, say, 1962-1970?

2:

What (Brooklyn) bus lines were the nearest to the 69th St. Ferry?

Thanks for any info.....

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 54
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
What routes terminated at South Ferry, in the time span of, say, 1962-1970?

At the outset, there was the 6 - Broadway/Seventh Avenue line (at the start of this timeline a Fifth Avenue Coach Lines - NYCO Division route, but due to "The Strike," becoming one of the many operated by MaBSTOA - and after 1963, traveling up Sixth Avenue all the way) and the 'Tee-Yay's' 15 - First and Second Avenues line (in an alternation of runs some of which terminated at City Hall or Chatham Square). 1964 was when ex-NYCO 1 - Park Avenue South/Madison Avenue's southern terminus was extended all the way to South Ferry (two years before its southbound path between 135th and 40th Streets was moved one block west to Fifth Avenue). Thus was it at the point we reach the end of this time span in '70. In this span we reach the gamut of buses from (at least) TDH-4509's (if not the remaining TD-4506's and TDH-4507's) to the 1967 air-conditioned TDH-5303 'batwings' - including hand-me-down TDH-4510's used by MaBSTOA in the 1963 period prior to 54th Street (where 6 was based) getting newer buses - terminating at South Ferry.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Greatly apprectiate this interesting "timeline", regarding the buses serving South Ferry.

Though Mom and I rode the IRT to South Ferry (for our frequent day trips to Staten Island), once, when Dad was with us (mid-60's), Mom thought it would be interesting to ride the bus all the way down to South Ferry, instead of taking the subway (we had just visited the old Hayden Planeterium/Museum of Natural History)

I cannot recall what line we rode, but I do remember we boarded an Old Look, and rode all the way down to South Ferry (though I missed the usual subway ride, I certainly had nothing to complain about, on this little "excursion"!)

Intrestingly, once at South Ferry, we did not sail on to St. George (as we usually did), but boarded a "PANORAMA" line sightseeing boat for a little harbor cruise (I remember Mom buying the tickets at the old ticket office in Battery Park, where excursion boat tickets were sold, including tickets to Liberty Island)

From George Hilton's 1964 book, 'THE STATEN ISLAND FERRY":

"......the terminal may also be reached by Broadway and First Avenue buses marked 'South Ferry'......"

When Mom and I went to Staten Island for the day, we either took the IRT 7th Avenue local straight down from Times Square; other times, we'd take the shuttle to Grand Central, take a Lexington Avenue train down to Bowling Green, and then grab the shuttle to South Ferry (it was on the BG-SF shuttle that Mom and I last rode a Lo-V, way back in 1964)

Man, I miss those days, still!

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding a/c equipped "first generation" New Looks.....

In 1959, 75 New Looks (TDH-5301's) were delivered to DC TRANSIT (Washington)

At the time, DC TRANSIT claimed it was the largest operator of air-conditioned transit buses in the world.

Of course, early a/c-equipped buses made sense for DC, given the city's hot and humid summers.

Now, of course, New York's summers were (and are) sultry, humid, stifling, and steamy; now, my question is this: why did DC TRANSIT order first-generation New looks equipped with a/c, while the NYCTA did not?

Just look at how long it was until New York's subways finally could boast an all a/c-equipped fleet......

"NYO"
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traildriver




Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Regarding a/c equipped "first generation" New Looks.....

In 1959, 75 New Looks (TDH-5301's) were delivered to DC TRANSIT (Washington)

At the time, DC TRANSIT claimed it was the largest operator of air-conditioned transit buses in the world.

Of course, early a/c-equipped buses made sense for DC, given the city's hot and humid summers.

Now, of course, New York's summers were (and are) sultry, humid, stifling, and steamy; now, my question is this: why did DC TRANSIT order first-generation New looks equipped with a/c, while the NYCTA did not?

Just look at how long it was until New York's subways finally could boast an all a/c-equipped fleet......

"NYO"


I remember seeing D C Transit's "Articooler's" in their spiffy Trans-Caribbean Airlines livery...both D C Transit and Trans-Caribbean were owned at the time by one O Roy Chalk. I guess he wanted the A/C's...

He has an interesting bio...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._Roy_Chalk
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

traildrivr:

I have not read this page on Mr. Chalk in quite awhile; thanks for this "refresher course"!

Yes, Mr. Chalk also wanted to at least try equip some of the PCC streetcar flee with a/c; DCTS requested permission from the DCPUC to air-conditioned nine more PCC's (the one and only PCC rebuilt with a/c, was renovated for sightseing service, and dubbed the "SILVER SIGHTSEER")

The DCPUC denied this PCC a/c upgrade in August, 1957.

However, DC TRANSIT did see some new a/c buses, pre-New Look; DCT purchased TDH-5105's in 1958.

A similar model, the TDM-5106, was also offered in 1958 only; only 110 of these were built.

PSNJ purchased most of these buses; ORANGE & BLACK and RED & TAN purchased the remainder.......

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



Age: 54
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629 wrote:
Regarding a/c equipped "first generation" New Looks.....

In 1959, 75 New Looks (TDH-5301's) were delivered to DC TRANSIT (Washington)

At the time, DC TRANSIT claimed it was the largest operator of air-conditioned transit buses in the world.

Of course, early a/c-equipped buses made sense for DC, given the city's hot and humid summers.

Now, of course, New York's summers were (and are) sultry, humid, stifling, and steamy; now, my question is this: why did DC TRANSIT order first-generation New looks equipped with a/c, while the NYCTA did not?

Just look at how long it was until New York's subways finally could boast an all a/c-equipped fleet......

I think in NYC, it pretty much came down to cost. A/C's on buses were more costly per bus than without. (Sad for those suffering through the summer, but true.) Also, what problems down the road FACL's experimental 'Old Look' 3100 (which entered regular service around this time) had with their A/C system, may have spooked the 'Tee-Yay'.

Also note that when FACL ordered their sets of New Looks, only 10 A/C's (originally 1-10, renumbered 3211-3220 in April 1963) were ordered - period. The remaining 110 (3101-3160 lettered 'FIFTH AVENUE COACH LINES INC.', 3161-3210 branded 'SURFACE TRANSIT INC.') weren't. By then, FACL weren't in all that great shape financially (worsened after the death of longtime prexy John E. McCarthy in June 1960), and they didn't even buy that experimental Flxible bus #100 they had on the 4, 5 and 10 (at the very least) in 1961, nor place any orders for new buses with them.

And the 'Tee-Yay' wasn't even first to get A/C buses even when they finally bit the bullet in early 1967 - those units (8001-8202) were built, believe it or not, after the first all-A/C MaBSTOA fleet (8301-8780) which preceded their TA cousins by a month in terms of entering service.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B.:

Greatly appreciate your always-welcome input and sharing more historical facts here. Wink

Yes, cost is, most often, THE deciding factor when it comes to a transit agency purchasing new equipment, be it rubber-tired or steel wheel)

Though PS's first-generation New look suburbans had a/c, it was not (AFAIK) for several more years until PS's transit New Looks received a/c.

Those I knew best (which I also commuted on for years) were the Z-3000's, which dated to about 1968; instead of having an a/c unit above the rear window, I clearly recall a duct that ran along one side of the inside of the buses, where car card ads would normally be placed.

Man, those a/c's, when cranked up, made you feel as though you were riding in a PFE reefer!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

As far as a/c'd Old Look suburbans, I can recall some having a long duct along the roof, with a boxy Thermo-King unit above the rear windows; while others had a larger, wider unit at the rear, but no external duct (I recall these on both PS and O&B buses)........

"NYO"
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W.B. Fishbowl



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing: The business of ordering first A/C buses, then A/C subway cars, was a high priority for then-Mayor John V. Lindsay. It was under his reign, after all, that the city first got both of regular-service (as opposed to experimental or trial) rolling stock both over and underground.
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.B. Fishbowl wrote:
One other thing: The business of ordering first A/C buses, then A/C subway cars, was a high priority for then-Mayor John V. Lindsay. It was under his reign, after all, that the city first got both of regular-service (as opposed to experimental or trial) rolling stock both over and underground.


W.B.:

Agreed.

Though there were a few unsuccessful experiments at installing a/c equipment in subway cars (R-15's/17's) in the 1950's, it was not until 1958 that the very first FLEET of a/c-equipped rapid transit cars entered service in the New York area; these were, of course, the H&M/PRR "joint service" cars ("K" Class/"MP-52" class)

I've read that, with these new PRR/H&M cars in service, proving that a/c-equipped rapid transit cars WERE indeed practical, the NYCTA found itself in the (pardon the pun) "hot seat"..........

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From: "WELCOME ABOARD THE GM NEW LOOK BUS" (McKane/Squier):

"........there were a large number of operators who bought First Generation New Look buses with air conditioning. But, with the V-6 engine, and the two-speed VH transmission, performance was sluggish when the a/c was operating; this was because the power was drawn from the main engine......"

".......In the future, many of these operators who would continue to buy new buses, either from GM or its competitors, specified V-8 engines with air-conditioning......."

"NYO"
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NEW YORK OMNIBUS 2629




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From: "RAPID TRANSIT SERIES BUSES" (McCausland):

".....having forced customers to purchase air conditioning with the 01 and 03 Series buses, GM felt the need for an RTS without the system was great enough to warrant an "AC Delete" package for the 04 Series....."

"......the exact rationale behind this coach is uncertain. GM claimed that these models would be mainly for fleets operating in much colder climates......"

"NYO"
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N4 Jamaica




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall when the D.C. Transit Arcticoolers arrived at the Avondale (Eastern & Michigan, N.E.) terminal, on I believe route E2 to Lafayette Square. I may have then complained that the moniker needed one more c, Artic+cooler. Vaguely, I recall that the E2 had permission to operate 102" buses. The Washington Post's City section was very good on details, whereas the New York Times ignored much local news.
Please see photo of a real bus, not a model:
https://www.sptc-spb.ru/model/1958-gm-tdh-5105-d-c-transit-5600-5666-series-air-conditioned-sptc245.php
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