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'Bus Nostalgia'
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pictured below leaving Pontiac Michigan is fleet # 117 – a 1940 Yellow Coach Model TD 3201 (ser# 0005) and one of seven to be delivered to Charleston Transit Company of Kanawha County, West Virginia in April of that year.

With an all aluminum body and monocoque construction, # 117 was the first ‘Old Look’ or ‘New Model Yellow Transit’ (as dubbed by GM) ever to be built and continued in production in one form or another for a record twenty eight years.

The 32 passenger model 01 featured an optional 4-71 Detroit Diesel combined with a Hydraulic transmission and a total of 141 were sold between 1940 and 1941 of which 63 were powered by 451 cubic inch gasoline engines.

At only 28 feet in length with a 181 inch wheelbase, Charleston Transit found the small capacity but heavy duty 3201 to be ideal in the hilly terrain and semi improved back roads that dotted their franchise.

All very early Yellow ‘Old Look’ buses were manufactured with vertical windshields and destination sign glasses in two parts divided by a decorative molding in the center.

Noted in the # 117 picture are the ‘drive away’ contractors license plate used to deliver the buses, a special ICC permit, safety screening on the passenger windows, ample prewar chromium touches including the 'Yellow' logo under the windshield and the very apparent flat outer rear tire.

Charleston Transit had its beginnings in the late 1800’s as a trolley operation with conversion to buses in the mid thirties and continued until its takeover by the Kanawha Regional Transit Authority in 1971.

#117 photo courtesy of Motor Bus Society
Lower photos courtesy of Kanawha Regional Transit archive.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

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The Don of All Buses



Age: 33
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Yonkers, NY

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW!! those buses are literally breath taking!!! I love them! you've realy out done you're self Mr. L.

Nice job! More please?! Wink
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Don,

Thanks so much for the compliments.

I want you to know that I enjoy doing these little trips down memory lane as much if not more than my readers (and it's a learning experience for me as well!).

My next feature will focus on the Pacific Greyhound Line's 'commute service' over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco circa 1940.

After that I would like to tackle Public Service Coordinated Transport of New Jersey's special experiment in cooperation with GM called the 'D 900'.

This was a very unusual coach because it had two completely seperate propulsion systems making it either 'all bus' or 'all trolley bus' and, until I can figure out how it differed from today's gas/electrics, I must hold up presentation.

However, I will post a picture below as a 'coming attraction!'

On another subject; in the photography forum you have directed us to see your drawings at 'flickr' under 'The Don of All Buses' but no matter how I enter the user name I can't find them (and would very much like to see your work).

Any ideas - maybe a direct URL - would appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Photo courtesy of the Motor Bus Society.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

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The Don of All Buses



Age: 33
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Yonkers, NY

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Linsky, I got the link up, sorry about that, I'm slow when it comes to computers...
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
I figured that I'd give you all something to think about while I'm away so pictured below is a bus that I know absolutely nothing about - in fact, I don't even remember where I found the picture!

If this is what Greyhound had in mind when they first thought about a split level, it's just as well that they waited for a better 4501 design to come along!...

Mr. Linsky -

Had the pleasant discovery of this board over the weekend. All as part of a quest ISO a photo of an ACF H-17-S. Your message here prompted me to register ASAP. Read a good bit of the most valuable posts already up...

I'm reluctant to just jump in with a new post, but on this one: "Me, teacher! Me! I know! I know!" <G>

I'll get some lengthy comment up, probably thru the day. Hint: the operating carrier was an early on member of Greyhound Lines...

......................Vern....................
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky -

Here's what your mystery photo is all about, from what I've learned over the past few years...

Mr. Linsky wrote:
...a bus that I know absolutely nothing about - in fact, I don't even remember where I found the picture!
Well, for a start, an as delivered photo of #708 is at the site of Washington State Railroad Museum at Pasco. Its site: http://www.wsrhs.org/mis.htm Also has a shot of the weary, old veteran in the Museum Collection. Very much in need of a generous benefactor. Further, the Museum captions appear to misunderstand the actual use of the coach. IMHO, I'd like to see it go back to Paccar, so that it can be reconditioned at Kenworth. Else, get it to the shops at Williams, CA. The coach surely sets aside the article of faith that split level design fermented in the brain of Raymond Loewy.

Quote:
...If this is what Greyhound had in mind when they first thought about a split level, it's just as well that they waited for a better 4501 design to come along!...
Now, now! There were split level designs on the road in the Pacific Northwest as early as 1926. The guys needed some time to work thru the rough edges.

Quote:
...The vintage is probably early thirties, and possibly a Heiser' custom built job (Heiser Body did put a few oddball coaches together on Kenworth chassis at that time)...
The coach is labeled as a 1934 Kenworth KHO in several references. It remarkably had an all aluminum body. Apparently powered by a single, large Hall-Scott motor, located midships. The truck builders of the era are a bit difficult to understand. In this instance, the coach is stated as a Kenworth. Yet, did they 'sub out' the coach work to Heiser? In the same era, there were also coaches in service registered as Heiser build. Might we assume a Heiser coach may have been on a variety of powered chassis?

Quote:
...The most amazing feature is the sheer size of the front tires...
My best guess has been the steers are 12.00 x 24 types. I sure need a tire expert here, though, so as to get it right. Power assist on steer? I'm dubious. With its aluminum body, it likely didn't load the steer all that heavily. So, might we posit any tough work at the wheel was in getting in and out of a city station? The older suspensions, when done right, weren't all that tough out on highway cruise.

Quote:
...so the bus must have operated in the northwest and possibly into Canada...There are logos that could be Trailways but, again, to vague to really identify...
The coach was part of a ten lot, operated by North Coast Lines, Seattle. A principal route was over USH-99, serving Portland, Seattle and Vancouver, and intermediate points. Chehalis, WA a good photo site, and views in Redden. The carrier was a sub. of the Seattle area electric utility, rail and transit firms, all controlled by Stone & Webster. North Coast Lines was an early member of the Greyhound Lines System. The relationship presumably predated ICC regulation in 1935. IIRC, as an indicator of age, NCL had Washington State CC Certificate #16!

I've gathered the info over the past few years from various sources. I've had this KW KHO as a running 'open folder' in my walkaround memory. It is not clear to me if the Museum group fully appreciates the value of this coach in its collection. Even today, an operating guy can see the beauty of it. The design created much more loading space for valuable package express shipments. In addition, the coach upheld the spirit of ca. 1935 ICC ruling that banned low floor designs in interstate commerce. In wilder imaginings, I'd like to see it restored as original North Coast Lines, with a CAT Turbo in the engine room! (Man, oh, man! It would just howl out on the road again!)

..........................Vern......................
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vern,

Well, you've certainly solved that mystery (and, I hope many more in the future).

To begin with, let me take this opportunity to welcome you to BusTalkIII and tell you that we look forward to your friendship and valuable input.

Most coaches both transit and over the road of the late twenties to early thirties were still matings of chassis by one company and bodies of another.

Heiser was well known at the time and seemed to be solidly connected to Kenworth.

The classic match was Flxible who had a close relationship with Buick almost from their inception in the teens, and continued through the era of the Clippers which were mounted on Buick chassis and powered by their famous 'Fireball' straight eights engines.

I did a feature on the Clipper 'Airporters' earlier in this forum.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing more from you - your comments are very welcome.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky -

Many Thanks! I thought you might enjoy the, "Tale Of The Old West" behind the remarkable KW KHO...

BTW, North Coast Lines had a fairly lengthy and staunch relationship with KW. In other Redden photos, some remarkable builds ca. 1948. The coaches looked very much like GM PD-4103 types, but had the forward position of the steer axle with a resulting pair of 'railfan' seats at the front windshield. Handsome coaches...

Another, sometimes overlooked, oddity about the smaller builders in the 1930s. From what we may still see today in photos, many were no strangers in roles of what amounted to custom job shops for smaller orders...

Thanks, Again! I've been most pleased to see much great material on this site...

..........................Vern..................
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vern,

The # 708 Kenworth sitting in the museum lot is a gem (a one of a kind) and, as you say, someone should pick up the ball and begin restoration.

The all aluminum body, which is really still in excellent condition, will ensure that the bus will be around for a long time, and that eventually it will carry its flag again!

In studying the two pictures (yours and mine), there apparently were more than one of these coaches manufactured.

My photo shows a number in the six hundreds and has a cooling system radiator under the windshield just as many ACF's of the era with amidships engines did.

# 708 obviously had a 'Twin Coach' arrangement with air intakes in the lower side panels, and I do see what appear to be engine cooling cores between the front and rear wheels.

I joked about how animated these buses looked but they were certainly ahead of their time and if Raymond Lowey had anything to do with it you can understand why.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
...I joked about how animated these buses looked but they were certainly ahead of their time and if Raymond Lowey had anything to do with it you can understand why...

Mr. Linsky -

I hadn't spotted the 600 and 700 distinction! Evidently, the 700 class had ten coaches. They apparently worked long and hard throughout WWII. Had to, as there was the other alternative in the era: If it was built of aluminum, it was scrapped for the war efforts! (Ex. UPRR M-10000 streamliner.)

My own conspiracy theory about this design: It was a collaboration between Kenworth, Heiser, North Coast Lines, and its Stone & Webster parent. Keep in mind competitive efforts in progress with Yellow Coach and its early development of high floor pusher designs, resulting in the 719 and 743 models.

Another item (and, gee, I wish I had time to shlep thru Pacific Northwest libraries and other sources): Whether, after intial delivery, any of the coaches were ever in joint pool service with Pacific Greyhound, (ESPEE), via Portland gateway and serving California points? In the era, and IMHO, I don't think Greyhound was necessarily all that picky whether member, thru pool equipment displayed its standard issue blue, with a running dog. (In support, the Pickwick orange with black evidently prevalent well past its entry into the Greyhound System.)

I've had e-mails with the Museum group. I remain uncertain what its stance might be with the KW KHO. I've suggested they might want to do some 'meet and greet' with the branch manager of the somewhat recently established KW dealership at Pasco/ Kennewick. It escapes my belief that the PTB at Kenworth and its PACCAR parent may not know the venerable KHO is still out there, and needs a good, compassionate aging vets home!

.......................Vern................
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Bill D




Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Waterbury, CT

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HwyHaulier wrote:
...Had the pleasant discovery of this board over the weekend. All as part of a quest ISO a photo of an ACF H-17-S.

......................Vern....................


Welcome aboard, Vern!

Here are a couple of builder's photos of Springfield Street Railway #170, a 1936 H-17-S. This bus was later sol to Northeast Transportation in Connecticut around 1953.

Bill





Photos courtesy of John Sullivan and Alan Walker of the Connecticut Motor Coach Museum.
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HwyHaulier




Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 932
Location: Harford County, MD

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill D wrote:
Welcome aboard, Vern!

Here are a couple of builder's photos of Springfield Street Railway #170, a 1936 H-17-S. This bus was later sol to Northeast Transportation in Connecticut around 1953...

Bill -

Many Thanks! As I may have noted earlier, the trail led here for my search for photos of the ACF coaches. Great to see the views you added. The question arose in some e-mails between some old friends, and focus on the old Fayette Street Independent bus that ran in Baltimore years back. It may have been a loose association of owner operators, so it did have quite a mix of various coaches...

Otherwise, I've been playing with the "Signature" block in Profile section. I still can't get it to kick in at bottom of my messages. It notes that I continue to believe I am Eastern Region VP for Pickwick Stages (Need a ticket for the L.A. Night Coach?) <G>... In an earlier life, logged a good bit of time with Consolidated Freightways. In earliest years, Leland James was a bus man before he was into freight. So, I have a long interest in Pacific Northwest operations...

......................Vern..................
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Mr. Linsky
BusTalk's Offical Welcoming Committee



Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5071
Location: BRENTWOOD, CA. - WOODMERE, N.Y.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill,

Great great picture of Springfield ACF # 170 - I don't think I have ever seen a rear mounted spare tire on a modern era transit before - they were really not necessary on local routes with the immediate availability of service cars.

It appears as though the name 'Springfield' and the numbers are arranged in the same block form as both 'Berkshire' and Connecticut' - was there a relationship?

Interestingly, Berkshire Street Railway did run a number of ex Connecticut ACF's as follows;

1937 ACF Model H-13-S Fleet # 112 & 113
1937 ACF Model H-17-S Fleet # 114 to 116 (ser# 281, 282 & 284) Ex Conn. # 490, 491 & 493.

However, no mention is made of any conncetion with Springfield.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY
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busdude2




Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was the only new bus purchased in 1950 by psct.
Mr. Linsky wrote:
The Don,

Thanks so much for the compliments.

I want you to know that I enjoy doing these little trips down memory lane as much if not more than my readers (and it's a learning experience for me as well!).

My next feature will focus on the Pacific Greyhound Line's 'commute service' over the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco circa 1940.

After that I would like to tackle Public Service Coordinated Transport of New Jersey's special experiment in cooperation with GM called the 'D 900'.

This was a very unusual coach because it had two completely seperate propulsion systems making it either 'all bus' or 'all trolley bus' and, until I can figure out how it differed from today's gas/electrics, I must hold up presentation.

However, I will post a picture below as a 'coming attraction!'

On another subject; in the photography forum you have directed us to see your drawings at 'flickr' under 'The Don of All Buses' but no matter how I enter the user name I can't find them (and would very much like to see your work).

Any ideas - maybe a direct URL - would appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Photo courtesy of the Motor Bus Society.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY

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Bill D




Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Waterbury, CT

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Linsky wrote:
Bill,

Great great picture of Springfield ACF # 170 - I don't think I have ever seen a rear mounted spare tire on a modern era transit before - they were really not necessary on local routes with the immediate availability of service cars.

It appears as though the name 'Springfield' and the numbers are arranged in the same block form as both 'Berkshire' and Connecticut' - was there a relationship?

Interestingly, Berkshire Street Railway did run a number of ex Connecticut ACF's as follows;

1937 ACF Model H-13-S Fleet # 112 & 113
1937 ACF Model H-17-S Fleet # 114 to 116 (ser# 281, 282 & 284) Ex Conn. # 490, 491 & 493.

However, no mention is made of any conncetion with Springfield.

Mr. Linsky - Green Bus Lines, Inc., Jamaica, NY


I do believe the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad did own all of the above properties at one time, which would explain the "family" look to the various fleets.

Bill
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